question about god's will, free will, and death.

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by soulrebel51, Aug 16, 2005.

  1. soulrebel51

    soulrebel51 i's a folkie.

    now some (mayhaps all of you) believers believe that god chooses who dies when.. well what if a person spontaneously chooses to kill another? that wouldn't be god's will, would it?

    and what about wars? does god decide that millions of people will die every few years, just because leaders of countries decided to go to war?
  2. nitemarehippygirl

    nitemarehippygirl Senior Member

    i have come to the conclusion that if there is a god, omniscient creator,
    who created the World, and everthing in it,
    then there is NO free will. everything about us has been willed by god first.

    anything else doesn't make sense. if god is supreme, then he is supreme everywhere and in all ways.

    i love it when confused christians say, "my granpaw drove drunk and died in a car accident. but it was god's will, and god called him home," or
    "god has a plan for me. and i have free will."
    you can't have it both ways.
  3. If it was there time to die then they would die if its not there time then they wont die.
  4. nitemarehippygirl

    nitemarehippygirl Senior Member

  5. ;)

  6. soulrebel51

    soulrebel51 i's a folkie.

    That makes no sense. "If its their time to die" that means god himself would have had to kill them, and that there is no such thing as free will.

    If god gave us free will like the bible claims, then there is absolutely no way in heaven or hell that he knows what will happen to all of us.
  7. Sera Michele

    Sera Michele Senior Member

    Good point.

    And if he knows all that will happen to us, then the events are already set in stone. No free will....

    I am not even completely convinced that true free will does exist with or without a god.

    Take a child and raise them with a poor family in the ghetto and watch what choices they make. Then go back in time and take that same child and instead raise them in the Hamptons with an aristocrat family...will he make the same choices? Will he want to go to the same college or buy the same house? Will he be happy with the same job? Will he wear the same clothes? Have the same attitude? Like the same music? How can their be true free will when there are so many outside variables that impact our everyday lives and the choices we make? Is it true free will when my choices and will are limited by my environment, upbringing, or just plain luck? Free will seems to be a foo-foo term with no real meaning.

    Who knows, but what I do know is that the whole free-will debate puts the spotlight onto a major contradiction within christian beliefs. Great thread!
  8. soaringeagle

    soaringeagle Senior Member

    i still maintain the fact that there is no way to determain wether something is godswill or free will so either free will & gods will exist therefor we are doing both, therefore we are in fact god(s)
    or neither exists therefor we are dong things cause of random occurrances of electro chemical reactions in our brains, neither free will nor godswill just simple biology
    or we have just free will which means god has no will (and dosnt exist)
    or were always doing gods will which means god is a sick motherfucker since sometimes he wills us to rape & kill children just to entertain him

    you choose which ones right
  9. Francisco

    Francisco Member

    who taught you how to breathe? remember the first breath?
    now how did you do it?

    can you teach a baby to breathe?

    breath(spirit) is a gift, for breath is received. Who is the Giver?

    breath and Spirit are one in the same for those who have experienced
    "The Life". those who have seen their need , realizing "they are unable
    to do the least", the least of which is breathing.

    quit breathing! go ahead and try. quite the impossible voluntarily. oh, you
    can self-distruct, sadly many do, for they believed in "death", they did not
    believe in The Life;-((((((

    "The Life" Spirit, as breath(spirit), is also a Gift.

    for those who have not received "The Life"? well they continue to breathe
    until that last breath, yet they believe that "death" is inevitable.

    and because they believed in "death" as they "lived", when they breathe that
    last breath, it is then that "death" will become their only reality, forever.

    The Messiah testified, “The ONLY TRUE GOD is not the "god" of the dead,
    The ONLY TRUE GOD is The GOD of The Living”!

    The Messiah testified, “Whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die”…….
    and then The Messiah questioned, “do you believe this”?

    do you??

    or are you of those who believe that when breath(spirit) leaves your body
    of flesh, and that flesh finally returns to the dirt from whence it came, that it
    is then that you are "free indeed"? Home, Home at last! Forever!

    those who deny The Life, those who don't see how "poor and needy" they
    are, those who refuse The Gift? well they remain as "trees walking", void of
    The Spirit that is The Life and sadly they will learn to late that the
    termination of their mortal bodies was but the "shadow of death", for on the
    other side of this temporal life, death will be experienced forever, by those
    who believed in "death" ;-((((((

    "death" is to be where the Giver of Life is not, both now and forever. "death"
    is to be set apart from all that is "Good", to be set apart from The Creator,
    The Great Spirit, forever! and those who believed in "death" will experience no
    "Good", forever ;-((((((

    now for those who have not yet "seen" their need?
    is there anyone who hasn't?

    seems most everyone "see's" they are "needy" yet do not realize their needs
    will not be provided for by drugs, sex, money, drinkin, smokin, games,
    busyness, "good deeds",,,etc,,, your Life needs will not be satisfied by any
    thing that is in, or of, this world, or with anything that is of "I".......

    the desire for, and the recognition of, The Great Spirit,
    and HIS knowing what is best for HIS Children, such an
    understanding is needed for your needs to be satisfied!

    True Children will desire, "Father, not my will, But THY Will Be Done"!

    and such a desire is "The Way to The Truth of The Life", The Life example
    was taught and Lived by The Messiah, He Who testified of His need for His
    Father. "I can do nothing of mine own self".......period.......

    The Father WHO gave you breath. The Father WHO gave you HIS Son, will
    also give you "The Life", yet you must "see" your need, "see" you are "unable
    to do the least" and humbly desire to become but a child of The Father. HE is
    Merciful and forgives those who seek HIS forgiveness.

    Our Father, HE did not create robots, you must “see” your need of HIM and
    seek HIM with all your "heart".

    once again The Messiah testified, "anyone who is living and has Faith in Me
    shall never die". and then He questioned, "do you believe this"?

    all who believe in "death", believe that "death" is an "answer" to the problems
    of their self-life or corporate fears. "the way of death" is of the nations and
    the religious systems of this wicked world, one of which is "christianity".

    Religious systems of this world. seems all alike they are,
    They have fought, killed and died both near and far;

    Then once a week, or multiple times a day they may pray,
    Yet as hypocrites they will begin each new day;

    Days that are filled with deceit and lies,
    for in a "religious system" Truth can not abide;

    And so the fruit of death is born of their religious ways,
    Because life is but a pawn in the wicked game they play!

    yet while there is breath(spirit) there is hope!

    hope that there would be those who would believe in and receive
    "The Way to The Truth of The Life", hope that many would be set​
    free from "the way of death and destruction" for soon "The Creator​
    is going to destroy those who destroy HIS Creation(earth)" and "time​
    will be no more", forever.......period.......​

    Miracles do happen! receive of The Life!​

    breath, by breath, by ,,,,,,,,,,,, foever.......

    peace, even as war(spiritual and carnal) rages....... francis
  10. soaringeagle

    soaringeagle Senior Member

    sorry dude, but it is you that will learn you've only been wasting your breath..& your life worrying about what may or may not come after..instead of living the only life you have..the life of here & now..
    your arguments make no say who taught u to take your first breath? need did..need to bbreath or die..instict not spirit..u claim animals are devoid of spirit yet dont they know enough to breath?
    honnestly i quite reading 1/2 way through your post cause it was kjust so much more blah blah blah..perhaps if there was asingle relavent statement someone will qoute it later & i'll concider it
  11. Francisco

    Francisco Member

    don't believe i ever claimed "animals are devoid of breath(spirit)". you'ld have to show me where.

    i accept that what you believe you believe, however, it but saddens me ;-((((((

    as to the "1/2 way"? better than "no way", could be the other 1/2 will get
    consideration at some other time.

    and as to consideration? no need, however, seems we all consider that which
    we read, and either it agrees with the spirit(for there are spirits many) within
    or it is cast off as irrelavent or possibly condemned for conscience sake.

    example: the hopi peoples of arizona believe;

    "a simple and spiritual life is the only life that will survive"!

    when i read that at the end of "the hope declaration of peace" i received
    the gift that is "tears of joy"! for i could "see" Truth, and i could "see" that
    "the hopi declaration of peace" was in perfect harmony with the teachings
    and The Life example of The Messiah.......period.......

    others, when they read that same hopi declaration?

    well they question, or contradict, or say "that's pagan", or ,,,etc,,, :-((((((

    yet, while there is breath(spirit) there is hope!

    for Miracles happen!

    peace, even as war(spiritual and carnal) rages....... francis
  12. soaringeagle

    soaringeagle Senior Member

    don't believe i ever claimed "animals are devoid of breath(spirit)". you'ld have to show me where. your right, you didnt, yet hats common christian assumption taken from another thread in this forum
    & i do beleive in the hopi prophesy, & yes some christian thought does fit into the hopi prophesies, when you abandon the traditionalinterpretations of several bible verses
  13. soulrebel51

    soulrebel51 i's a folkie.

    ...what in the fuck does breathing have to do with this thread? Your lungs are a living organ that work independent of the body. You can control it, but ultimately, as long as you're in good health, it works on its own.

    Go and take biology again, man..

  14. Francisco

    Francisco Member

    first thing that need's be abandoned is the imagined pagan name of
    "jesus chirst", a name that was not spoken by anyone till about 500
    years, or so, ago....... that was about the same time the mercenaries
    of "catholicism" began destroying any peaceful tribes that could bear
    witness to The Truth in the america's.

    the hopi peoples expect "the true white brother" to return soon, and i believe
    such a "brother" to be The Messiah, "the prince of peace" not "the prince of
    do what i want you to do or i will murder you", or "the prince of doublespeak",
    or "prince of the power of the air",,,,,, all such princely titles are reserved for
    the "jesus christ" of pagan "christianity".......

    now i can not say that i am in full agreement with all hopi prophecies, or i
    should say the interpretations, for i do not understand most of the
    prophecies, but "the declaration of peace"~~~~~~~my heart ;-)

    peace, even as war(spiritual and carnal) rages....... francis
  15. White Feather

    White Feather Senior Member

    Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's,
    Render unto God the things that are God's
    And render unto me the things that are mine.
    - Gospel of Thomas. My rendering.

    One who is one with G-d cannot kill. One who is in love cannot hate.

    War is rendering to Caesar what is his.
  16. soaringeagle

    soaringeagle Senior Member

    thankyou, that put your perspctive into a much clearer light & was far easier to understand (and read all the way then your 1st post & i repect your thoughts on this
  17. soaringeagle

    soaringeagle Senior Member

    ummm huh? what? are you trying to say all wars are just? i have no clue what your trying to say here..english (no offence)
    & i've been meaning to ask this for awhile so i might as well ask you, why is it you sometimes type God & other times G-d?
  18. Francisco

    Francisco Member

    and "christianity" is caesar's.......for the pagan "catholic" mother of
    "christianity" was ordained of constantine(a caesar) so that pagans
    would better serve him in his kingdom. a little truth here, a little lie
    there, and what do you get? A BIG LIE! and death, multitudes
    murdered ;-(!

    "catholicism" and "christianity" both Anti-Messiah.......

    and then some 1500 years later "catholicism" and her #1 daughter "the
    church OF england" gave their "god" the imagined name of "jesus" :-(

    and THE BIG LIE seems to get bigger every day :-((((((

    so many deceived, so many deluded :-((((((

    yet, while there is breath(spirit) there is hope!

    Miracles do happen!

    peace, even as war(spiritual and carnal) rages....... francis
  19. Epiphany

    Epiphany Copacetic

    White Feather is simply stating that the very core of God is love. To know God, is to know love, and possess that within your soul.

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