Question about buddhism?

Discussion in 'Buddhism' started by Gedio, Aug 21, 2009.

  1. Gedio

    Gedio Member

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    Is the destruction of the ego neccassary?
    I've been looking into religion lately, and Buddhism seems pretty good, but I'm not really into the whole "disolving of the self" stuff. How neccasary is it?
     
  2. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    There is no destruction of the ego.
    Instead the ego is shown to be an illusion that needs to be transcended. "You" will not cease to exist, your ego will always be present, or "you" would not be human. What happens is an awareness of how the ego operates in yourself and others. With this awareness of the transitory nature of the ego comes a freedom from the confines of the ego's dictates. The ego no longer rules your actions.

    The dissolving of the self means that you become aware of the interconnected nature of everything and everybody. This is not an intellectual understanding but a constant experience in the now moment. The self is seen not as a single, isolated entity; but as an interrelated part of the whole.
     
  3. ripple

    ripple Member

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    Don't mean to hijack a thread here, but are there discourses on this as taught by the Buddha? Suttas? Are they available online? Is there one in particular relates to this question?

    Thanks
     
  4. Bhaskar

    Bhaskar Members

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    Ripple, I think if you contemplate on the Heart Sutra all of this is in there. More explicitly conveyed perhaps in the mahayana mahaparinrvana sutra.

    I really like your explanation, meagain. My understanding is this: The ego now is identified with our one body and mind. By looking deeper, we can expand the ego to embrace all beings, seeing our oneness with all things. From one standpoint we can call it destruction of self, in that the idea of a limited, individual me is gone. From another standpoint the same thing is expanding the ego to embrace everything. It is a shift from "I am this body and mind and nothing else" to "I am this body and everything else."
     
  5. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Yes Baskar, except that the ego is a construct dependent on memory, feelings, etc, and as such is not a real thing anyway. (I forget what the Buddhist definition of the ego is and don't feel like looking it up right now.)
    So as the ego is not really a thing, so too we come to see that there are no independent things or beings, but we operate as if there were.

    I would rephrase your "I am this body and everything else." to something like...oh...."I am; but not I, just am." LOL
     
  6. Bhaskar

    Bhaskar Members

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    at that point it is not really ego... It is a different I, the Buddha nature I, the tathaagata I, the true I - which is just a name for existence itself (at least in the Hindu tradition and in some readings of the Indian Buddhist works). There can be nothing other than it, it is all that is. Therefore, for each being it is I and that I is the same, because at the core all things are one.
     
  7. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    True, each is the same; no each.
     
  8. BlackBillBlake

    BlackBillBlake resigned HipForums Supporter

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    Surely it's more a shift to non-conceptuality? That would be my understanding.
     
  9. Bhaskar

    Bhaskar Members

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    Of course it is not a mere concept. It is experience. If that experience were to be clothed in words, then it might be expressed in the way I did. That is what the Buddha did, that is what Ramana did (the statement I made is an echo of what he said) and that is what all great spiritual teachers did - express their transcendent experience through words for the benefit of humanity.
     
  10. BlackBillBlake

    BlackBillBlake resigned HipForums Supporter

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    But an experience which remains a concept for those who do not have it.

    Sometimes one can see the wisdom of the Zen position of having nothing to say.
     
  11. Bhaskar

    Bhaskar Members

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    And if every sage had chosen silence, then you and I would have nothing to show that there was even the possibility of spiritual evolution or a higher way of life.

    I for one am deeply, deeply grateful to those masters, who chose to share their experience, to make guidance available for those who seek it.

    And I would have thought you, of all people, would appreciate the value of someone deciding to work to help the world rather than remain isolated in their silent cave.
     
  12. BlackBillBlake

    BlackBillBlake resigned HipForums Supporter

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    The thing you're missing here is that there are deeper and more direct ways in which truth can be communicated than words and concepts.

    I don't think Buddha ever claimed that the truth could be communicated through words.

    Where words are concerned it's all too easy to 'mistake the finger that points at the moon for the moon itself'.
     
  13. Bhaskar

    Bhaskar Members

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    The words are a medium as everything else. If the Buddha there would have been not a single Zen master. I never denied that the truth is something beyond words or that there are other ways to teach.
    But without words, our traditions and the teachings would never survive. And a vast majority of us, self included, require words in order to raise us to the point where we can appreciate silence.
     
  14. Musikero

    Musikero Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    I think what Bhaskar is trying to say is we (most of us anyway) still need the finger that points at the moon. Even if there is a risk of mistaking that which points to that which is being pointed at, that risk is worth taking if there is even a small chance of seeing what is being pointed at.
     
  15. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Zen is silent because ultimately words can not express the Ultimate. Zen relies on a "Direct Transmission."

    As far as hermits in a cave not helping the world, one could ask, who is there to help and how would you help them? If we accept the Eastern view that we are only God hiding from Himself then why would we think that anyone needs help? The enlightened hermit might just decide to sit and watch the show.

    I have often thought that Lao Zsu may have had a clearer understanding than The Buddha. ;)
     
  16. Bhaskar

    Bhaskar Members

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    Lao Tsu was not silent either.
    And do you truly claim to be wise enough to be able to judge between the Buddha and Lao Tsu?
     
  17. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    LOL! Good one Bhaskar!

    True Lao Tsu did speak up, but then he disappeared into the hills, and the content and direction of his discourse was somewhat different then the Buddha's.

    As far as my degree of wisdom is concerned....don't ever take anything I say as anything other then my opinion, not as any fact or insight that I may have. I just spout off a lot and leave it to others to check out the validity of what I spit and sputter about...or ignore.

    I have always thought that the difference between Buddhism and Taoism is very basic. Buddhism (in general) shows you how to become enlightened. Taoism sez you already are enlightened so leave well enough alone.
    I realize this is a very simplistic explanation and some types of Buddhism say the same thing, but I'm talking about popular conceptions.

    In reality Vedanta, Taoism, Buddhism, Christian mysticism, etc. are all the same thing anyway.
     
  18. Bhaskar

    Bhaskar Members

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    That's the beauty of it though. They all seem quite irreconcilably different on first reading. But really they all start at different places and end in the same final realization.
    Lao Tsu, as I understand it, did not tell us to remain as we are, but he told us to do nothing. And doing nothing is a HUGE change from our current frenzied activity. And because of that we lose sight of the infinite Tao in our own hearts. This is of course perfectly in tune with all that the Buddha and the Upanishads and Jesus had to say.
    They necessarily say it very differently. People are very different and so a wide variety in spiritual teachings means a larger percentage of humanity is benefited. And also, for those who explore many traditions, such as myself, it keeps the teachings ever fresh and new and always holds the element of surprise that can for a few moments silence the mind and propel us into silence.
     
  19. Musikero

    Musikero Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    :cheers2:
     
  20. darrellkitchen

    darrellkitchen Lifetime Supporter

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    Words ...

    All just words ...

    A description of feelings ... of perceptions ... of fabrications ... of consciousness ...

    This is not me ...
    This is not who I am ...
    This is not my self ...

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    "Identity, identity ... What is called identity by the Blessed One?"

    "These five aggregates affected by clinging are called identity by the Blessed One; that is, the material form aggregate affected by clinging, the feeling aggregate affected by clinging, the perception aggregate affected by clinging, the [mental] formations aggregate affected by clinging, and the consciousness aggregate affected by clinging. These five aggregates affected by clinging are called identity by the Blessed One."

    "Origin of identity, origin of identity ... What is called the origin of identity by the Blessed One?"

    "It is craving which brings renewal of being, is accompanied by delight and lust, and delights in this and that; that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for being, and craving or non-being. This is called the origin of identity by the Blessed One."

    "Cessation of identity, cessation of identity ... What is called the cessation of identity by the Blessed One?"

    "It is the remainderless fading away and ceasing, the giving up, relinquishing, letting go, and rejecting of that same craving. This is called the cessation of identity by the Blessed One."

    "The way leading to the cessation of identity, the way leading to the cessation of identity ... What is called the way leading to the cessation of identity by the Blessed One?"

    "It is this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, rigt effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration."

    "How does identity view come to be?"

    "Here an untaught ordinary person ... regards material form as self, or self as possessed of material form, or material form as in self, or self as in material form. He regards feeling as self, or self as possessed of feeling, or feeling as in self, or self as in feeling. He regards perception as self, or self as possessed of perception, or perception as in self, or self as in perception. He regards [mental] formations as self, or self as possessed of [mental] formations, or [mental] formations as in self, or self as in [mental] formations. He regards consciousness as self, or self as possessed of consciousness, or consciousness as in self, or self as in consciousness. That is how identity view comes to be."

    ...

    Culavedalla Sutta, The Shorter Series of Questions and Answers, Majjhima Nikaya 44.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    The link provided differs from what I typed from the translation by Bhiikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi ... but then again ... they're all just words ...



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