Discussion in 'Protest' started by renee, May 13, 2004.

  1. Dolphin~Rider

    Dolphin~Rider Member

    For those of you who are pro-life, how did you come to feel this way? Did you soul search, examine your conscience, look at the medical information and then make up your mind? Well, that's all pro-choice people want-the chance to make up their own minds based on how they view the facts and circumstances surrounding an individual pregnancy. You get to make up your own mind and form your own opinion. Would you deny that right for someone else or just force your will upon them? Don't they deserve an equal chance to decide for themselves or are you and your views/morals so far superior that you would take that choice away from other women and their partners? I think the reason pro-choice is associated with the hippy movement is because being a hippy is about letting others find their own path, do their own thing and not judging others. Pro-choice doesn't mean the same thing as pro-abortion. It just means that I don't get to decide for you whether or not you bear a child and you don't get to decide for me, either. If you think it's a sin or a murder then you shouldn't do it, but don't you dare decide that for me!
  2. MamaTheLama

    MamaTheLama Too much coffee

    Yeah, what dolphin~rider said :)
  3. Smudge

    Smudge Member

    and that's the problem, the child doesn't live to get the chance to do that, and make up it's mind if it wants to live, - to exercise it's 'human rights.'
    So someone has to for it.

    I was a pregnancy tester and counsellor in a pregnancy crisis centre....we never wanted to 'punish' the women as someone suggested was the opposite...the centre was set up by someone who had had an abortion in her 20's and bitterly regretted it after as she got older and learned more.

    Post-abortion trauma is real, and shows up in many problem symptoms, physical and emotional.
  4. HappyHaHaGirl

    HappyHaHaGirl *HipForums Princess*

    Just because you're pro-choice doesn't mean you're pro-abortion... I don't think I could live with myself if I had an abortion, but I don't think that I would ever make that choice. And I would never condemn a person for doing's up to each individual to make your own choice...not the Chrisitians, not the government, not anyone else but yourself.
  5. lovelyweapon

    lovelyweapon Member

    Many, many persons I have spoken to about this issue have maintained the position of "if they have sex, let them deal with the consequences". Now, I don't know about you, but that sure sounds a lot like punishment to me. In my opinion, abortion is a private medical issue between a woman and her doctor - it shouldn't even be up for debate.

    Also, many professionals have researched Post-Abortion Syndrome; they can't even come to the conclusion on whether or not it exists. Most women feel only relief after an abortion - and in this day and age there should be no excuse for not "learning more", as there is information on both sides available to a woman so she can make an educated choice.
  6. Smudge

    Smudge Member

    The ''relief'' after abortion is often short-lived, and often relationships break up to (the very ones that the abortion was done trying to 'save.')

    I re-iterate, there are people out there with no intention of wanting to 'punish' women for thinking about abortion, or having one.
    A lot of the counsellors in many of the 100's of pregnancy crisis centres, in the U.K. and the U.S.A. have had abortions themselves.
    I was trained, myself, in post-abortion counselling...there is a great need for it.
  7. lovelyweapon

    lovelyweapon Member

    Oh, I am sure there are plenty of people out there who do not want to punish the woman. But there also many that do. It is a rather misogynistic stance, and I have heard it personally from many people whom I have debated this topic with.

    There are also women who require postpartum counseling - does this mean giving birth is a bad thing?
  8. Smudge

    Smudge Member

    This is a completely pro-women stance. (If you knew me better you would know how often I have had 'feminist' thrown at me as an accusation)

    A pro-man stance, and a

    pro-child stance,

    as it
  9. lovelyweapon

    lovelyweapon Member

    Still does not change the fact that some do not think as you do. They are not pro-woman, or pro-man, or pro-child. To them, it's all about the fact that the woman had sex and must face consequences for it. I never said this was your position.
  10. Damn, I just read my message. That came out all wrong now that I think of it. Hmm... I'm now confused.
  11. Maggie Sugar

    Maggie Sugar Senior Member

    So does having a child that you can't take care of. Whether you keep it or give it up for adoption. Ever hear of "Post adoption depression?" or "Post Partum Depression?" They are very real, also.

    How about the depression, and physical and emotional problems of living in poverty, because children one didn't want and couldn't afford were brought into the world? The children suffer in these situations too. As do their mothers.

    Unwanted pregnancy is NEVER painless, no matter what the choice is. Let the womyn decide what she wants to do. She will suffer no matter what they choice is. It isn't up to you or anyone else.
  12. Tamee

    Tamee naked

    I agree. ~*~*~*

    When I was 16 I had an abortion because I freaked out and wanted to be really selfish. I'm always thinking about how if I hadn't, my whole life would be different and I would have a two year old right now. I don't think it's right and I'd never do it again, but I don't know if I think it should be illegal. People have to learn to be strong.
  13. Tamee

    Tamee naked

    I agree with that also. Fertility clinics have never seemed right to me. So much tampering with life, for what? I watched a tv show about to-be parents who wanted to chose the sex and even eye color of their children (that technology really is available now, unbelievably) and it made me sick. It makes me sad.
  14. sugrmag

    sugrmag Uber Nerd

    To whomever said that women who were raped should give the baby up for adoption: most people are raped by someone they know. Most women don't report date rape. Do you want your rapist to have a chance to get custody or visitation rights to the baby? If you are raped, don't report, the rapist will NOT go to jail. If you give up a baby,most states require the father to be contacted. Shit, in Florida, women have to put a notice in the paper listing potential fathers before she can give a child up for adoption. A rapist who impregnates a women has potential rights to the baby!!
  15. Maggie..dont forget post-partem Psychosis.

    All those women who drowned their tha lady who drown her 5 kids in the tub...suffered from this severe form of post-partem depression.

    Pro-lifers think that being pregnant is always a glowing walk in the park and in the end there is a beautiful cherub that you instantly bond to that you would die for...even kill for.


    as for the adoption many of the pro-lifers on here are gonna adopt all these unwanted babies??? even the crack-addicted black babies that no one EVER wants(tragically).

    Laughinwillow???? are you on the list to adopt a few unwanted babies that would have been aborted if the mother didnt get pressured by the pro-life movement??

    Renee? you better be on a list and saving your pennies to adopt.

    there are millions of unwanted children worldwide.

    but you will probably..selfishly bare your own children in the SELFISH pursuit to spread your genetics.

    I am a pro-choice married mother who has had an abortion.I was not gonna allow an unwanted pregnancy or child(concieved despite pills and condom combos) cut into the lives or hinder my existing daughters lives.

    I would not be able to chase around my kids,take them to the amusement park,ride horses with them...or any of that forced with a compulsory pregnancy or extra mouth to feed.

    If my decision was selfish because I thought of my daughters first before some potentional person..then I dare you to get in their faces and tell them that they too are responsible for their possible siblings death(because of their selfish desire to be happy and spoiled)...I dare you.

    I marched on Washington April 25th! I marched for my daughters and their right to control their own bodies and wombs.

    Pro-lifers call us selfish but they are just as their desire to control my body and my values.
  16. Tamee

    Tamee naked

    I think if I ever adopted a kid, I wouldn't look at any of them, just tell whoever's in charge that I want the one who's been there the longest. Same goes with animals at the pound. To me, it's only fair.
  17. To me its not about a woman having CONTROL over her body. Its beyond anything considered as control. It is about a woman realizing the beauty of human life. Willow is 100% right when she said that this society is insane. People these days are so confused, and self centered that they are blind. It is absolute madness when someone kills the most precious thing in life! That baby is you, your future, and the greatest teacher of love.
    I dont understand how people can even think the fetus is not alive until it is born. Or that it is too stupid to understand its own life. That little baby is very special and ending its life makes me ache inside.
    Yes, rape, incest, and severe abnormalities of the fetus are different situations. But alot of abortions are from people who did not take the proper birth control methods.

    Deep down I think alot of people know its wrong, they just CHOOSE to ignore it.

  18. This is a fallacy created by the pro-life movement which is also(not surprisingly) led and mostly comprised of white christian men.Brigid and Maggie usually have the actual statistics on hand without googling....but something like 65% of abortions are performed on single white career women whose "proper" birthcontrol failed.Another large chunk of the remaining percentage are married women who's birthcontrol failed.the smallest percentage of women having abortions is the poor and/or underage woman who did not use any birth control at all.

    I was part of the percentage...married woman who's birth control failed.I also got pregnant 3 months after my second child(who was a back to back baby with the first...almost irish twins) body was tired..i had kidney problems during my pregnancy and my daughter had hydrothronosis inutero.I also suffered from a small case of depression,my hubby finally got hired for our major city EMS unit and had to take a $4 paycut during training for 3 months.I was incapable mentally and physically and financially to cope with another pregnancy and child.We decided TOGETHER that a termination was the best option...and he told me that if we wanted to,a few years down the road we could have another baby or even adopt when we were in a better position.

    It was not an easy decision to make...but it was the best for our family.I have little regret.yes I do think about what could have been if I had kept the baby...but when weighed against the present and futures of our existing children....that woulda/shoulda/coulda doesnt even register on the priority scale.

    It's hard for those not in this situation faced with this decision.It's easy to bash women who have abortions and easy to speak out against them when you have no idea what it's like to face the choice right in the eye.

    pro-lifers(most following the hate-speech of Neal Horsley or Jerry Falwell) always assume that women who have abortions are bratty whiny selfish young women who simply dont want to surrender their figures to pregnancy and then surrender their social lives to a baby.

    it simply isnt the reality or truth.

    there is also the misconception that pro-choicers deny that abortion isnt ending a life.IT IS ENDING A LIFE.but it isnt an equal life compared to a fully formed and existing person with a conscience.the embryo or fetus is not worth equal to that of the woman carrying it.

    and ALL pro-choicers agree that unless their is a serious condition or emergency....abortions in the 3rd trimester are unethical because those babies are potentially viable WITHOUT ADVANCED MEDICAL INTERVENTION and could survive outside the womb WITHOUT ADVANCED MEDICAL INTERVENTION.

    I have never met one pro-choice supporter that agrees with late-term abortions unless the mother is suffering or the fetus is suffering/and or has no chance of a quality life.

    I would also like to point out the vast majority of hard-core pro-lifers do not even agree with abortion in cases of rape and incest or if the woman's life is on the line.

    They actually believe that the embryo/fetus is not only equal but worth more then the woman therefore,she must risk her life in order to make sure that this baby is born and given a chance.

    Ironically,these same people also dont support,vote against,and make laws preventing help,support,and medical care needed to sustain pregnant women and all these unplanned and unwanted babies.

    they want to end welfare,medicaid,WIC,free health insurance for pregnant women and children,they make laws making it harder for people to adopt these children..and then also want to end funding for foster parents and children's homes and programs.

    pro-lifers have no solution on how to care and handle all these kids, they dont want to foot medical bills or provide therapy services for women who were forced to continue pregnancy and then forced to give birth and then deal with the anxiety and sadness of turning the baby over to the state.

    they think that just tossing these kids into the system is the solution. that the women dont really exist..that they are merely factories aiding their cause for control and power over the individual.

    In their world...birth control doesnt fail and pregnancy is something every woman can and should handle.In their world,even married people should abstain from sex if they dont want to risk pregnancy.

    I dont know what world most pro-lifers live in...but it sure as hell isnt the same one I live in.

    I live in a world full of war,poverty,hate,crime,carnage,environmental destruction,and a booming population of over 6 billion people.

    there are billions of starving people(including millions and millions of starving kids). In 20 years....our earth will begin to start being unable to sustain our human 50 years oil will be 100 years...our fresh water will be on it's last legs.

    This is our future.

    I would also like to remind you that before abortion was made legal....55 million women died between the years of 1950-1974(? is 74 or 72?) more women died from illegal or self-induced abortions then soldiers killed in the vietnam war.

    I refuse to go back to that era and I refuse to allow my daughters to be forced into that era.

    so tell me pro-lifers..what is your realistic and logical solution??
  19. lovelyweapon

    lovelyweapon Member

    *listens to the crickets churping*
  20. Tamee

    Tamee naked

    open your mind. you are too set in your views on why you think people chose to belive the way they do. That's something you couldn't possibly know. Even if everyone you talked to told you they feel one way for one reason, and everyone you talked to had the same reason, that is still a very small percentage of EVERYONE and it's unfair to base your opinion on EVERYONE who felt that way, just from that. The only way you could have some real credit with what you are saying is if you asked EVERYONE how they felt and why they felt that way, and even then, if you tried your whole life to talk to every single person on this earth, you still couldn't ask all of them, so your conclusion would still be screwed.

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