Parents' responsibility to teach their kids about animals (Caution, long)

Discussion in 'Parenting' started by Lilyrayne, Mar 10, 2008.

  1. Lilyrayne

    Lilyrayne Chrisppie

    This isn't so much a parenting issue, but I need some advice from those who are parents. Well, maybe not advice, but more of a "would you do this" kinda thing... you'll see what I mean. I need parents of school aged children to answer. I'm sorry this is long but I know no other way to get in all the details, and it does have to do with parents and children.

    I've been attempting to be friends with this neighbor. At first all she wanted to do was invite me along to church functions and whatnot. Finally I said, that's not gonna happen due to my health and the fact that I can't really hear the sermons anyway, I have my own deaf church that I go to. (I am a Christian, yes, but I am not your typical Christian. I look like a hippie and she is very conservative, typical anal Christian type). Well after she found out I was already "saved" and already a Christian, despite my daring to have blue streaks, wear hemp, dress alternatively, speak frankly and with a down to earth attitude, she pretty much dropped all communication with me. It seems for all intents and purposes she thought I was some heathen because of the way me and my husband look, like if you have piercings and like skulls you can't possibly be Christian, and she was only interested in evangelizing me. Well since I'm already saved, it seems she has no interest in me since she can't use me to chalk another one up on her "how many souls I've saved so I can prove I'm a good christian" tally.

    I decided to offer one last olive branch, this one involving good for her kids. She has school-aged children. We are getting a puppy, and I do not have children, so I am trying to round up families with children to come over and play with the puppy to socialize her to children so she will not be aggressive to them when she is grown. I wrote this neighbor an email...

    She responded with this, which first alerted me to the "BS" factor:

    Uh, are you serious??? So, not sure whether this WAS indeed BS or she was really that afraid of harmless puppy nipping (and deciding if she was, she needed to know that puppies are not vicious creatures) I responded with: (and yes I was a bit snarky because I thought it was just ridiculous)

    To which SHE responded:

    So, my question for you parents is:

    Is this a normal thing, for parents to actually be afraid of their children getting playfully nipped by a puppy? Seriously? I smell bullshit. I am not sure if maybe this is common, and I just don't realize it because I have worked with dogs all my life and do not have my own children to understand (but if I did I would not take measures to protect them from... puppies.)

    Or am I right in that this is total bullshit and it is a ruse because she is trying to avoid me, and it has nothing to do with parenting? I don't want to think this of her if it is actually common, unbeknownst to me, for parents to be this way. I just think it is absolutely ridiculous to be concerned for your children over puppy nipping... a 3 pound puppy at that.

    Wouldn't you WANT your children to have the experience of being taught how to work with animals and problems that arise with them? Especially in the presence of a dog trainer? Wouldn't you WANT your children to learn what puppies are really about? Wouldn't you WANT your children to not be afraid of dogs because they've never been around them? Wouldn't you want your children to learn what to do and what NOT to do around puppies AND grown dogs to avoid getting injured by a dog later on due to making a wrong move in front of a dog they don't know?

    Dog injuries to children are usually caused unintentionally by the child, not the dog - because the child was never taught how to behave around dogs and ended up inadvertantly triggering an attack. I know this is not the case for every single child dog bite, but most of them, it is. And the parents only have themselves to blame for not letting their children learn about this early on to have prevented these attacks.

    I am asking all this because I really want to know exactly where the majority of parents are when it comes to children and dogs, when they have no dogs of their own at home. Because I am going to be recruiting as many families as possible to be involved in this new dogs socialization early on, and I want to know if this situation is a common one that I will encounter or this neighbor is just judgemental so-called-Christian that really doesn't want anything to do with me. And if this IS a common situation, how can I better explain to parents how all this works and that there is nothing to be afraid of?

    Thanks to anyone who weighs in on this matter.
  2. homeschoolmama

    homeschoolmama Senior Member

    Aww, I'm so sorry! From what you've written, she does kind of strike me as the "notch-collecting Christian" type. I've run into a few of those myself. Probably best to smile, nod, and try not to take it personally as I've not found anything yet to convince these types that they're not exactly helping Christianity any.

    As for having my kids go over to a neighbors house to play with a puppy... if I were the mom in question, depending on how the request were worded I might or might not think it an "odd" request also - and while I'd have been far more direct, I could see myself not wanting to let them go play either. I do know about 5-ish parents who are QUITE terrified of their kids being bitten by dogs though, so maybe it's genuine?

    To be honest, if I were guessing I'd say it might have been in how you asked her that upset her more than the fact that it was a puppy though. I would have said something like "Hey, we're getting a new puppy in a few weeks, and we're REALLY wanting her to be sociable with kids 'n stuff. Do you think your kids might be willing to come play with her?" I realize what you were trying to say & that you were trying to be thorough & completely honest, but it did come off sounding just a bit... well, it'd make me feel a tiny bit uneasy too.
  3. Lilyrayne

    Lilyrayne Chrisppie

    Thanks! I'm still trying to figure out the difference between what you would have said and what I did say.... the only difference I am seeing is that you used far less words, lol. What is it that I am not seeing here? I mean how did I word it that makes a parent uncomfortable? Can you put your finger on it because I am totally not seeing it at all. Maybe only parents can see it? lol. help! Thanks *grin*

    You make good points about it being possibly genuine, but I still suspect it isn't the puppy nipping, but me.

    And for the record I am going to get such satisfaction when I am walking the dog and her kids who always play outside want to play with her - I will say "Sorry, but I already asked your mom and she does not want you playing with my puppy. I don't want to make her mad." HAHAHAHA She is going to have to deal with those kids especially when they see all the other neighborhood kids getting to play with her but not them.
  4. homeschoolmama

    homeschoolmama Senior Member

    Hmm... I guess it's things like suggesting that you might want her kids to stick their fingers into her food, or tug on her tail? Now I understand why you're asking, and I agree it's a good idea to have your puppy used to some of the things that kids do. But as a parent this sounds a bit scary. And it's the kind of things we all teach our kids NOT to do so depending on the kid it has the potential to confuse a child (even as old as pre-teenish, depending on personality!) when they're asked to do this to one dog, but not another. And if a kid WERE to do this to the wrong dog... well, it's that potential "accident waiting to happen" concept that trips the mama-paranoia alarms.

    I think a shorter initial request might have been taken much better. If someone were to ask me if my kids could come play with their new dog, I'd let 'em. And if after a few visits to the puppy, (when nobody's come home with their nose glued back on) I was asked about letting the kids help with some simple "obedience issues," I'd be perfectly okay with this too. I'm NOT advocating not being completely honest... but sometimes I think you can give someone too many details all at once & scare 'em off. Did that make any sense?
  5. Lilyrayne

    Lilyrayne Chrisppie

    Yeah, I can see your point. I totally didn't think about the kids being confused and not able to distinguish "it's okay for this dog but not that dog". I was thinking more along the lines of they would just know, like pulling the tail (gently of course) I'd say "This will help her learn not to get mad if someone pulls her tail, because if you pull a dog's tail that isn't used to it you can get really hurt, so don't ever pull a tail unless the dog's person has told you it's ok" KWIM?

    If they've never been allowed around a dog period, often it doesn't matter what the parent said not to do, kids are gonna do it anyway if they don't know that dogs really do bite if you pull their tails. I remember being a kid, and I never really learned just from what my mom told me what not to do... I did stuff BECAUSE she said not to often. I learned from experience - be it happening to me or watching it happen to someone else. I'd always heard all my life growing up "never stare a dog you don't know in the face" but I never really took it seriously, until I nearly got my face bitten off for doing so. Now if I had a dog trainer actually DEMONSTRATE the action (staring a dog in the face) and showing me a different way of looking at a dog without setting it off, I'd have remembered it a lot better. I would have never almost gotten my face bit off as a kid if I'd had a chance to be SHOWN that.

    It is really sad when parents keep their kids from learning opportunities like this though. What this woman is doing is exactly why kids end up getting mauled or even killed by dogs. Parents that worry about their kids getting bit by a dog usually screw THEMSELVES over because THEY are the reason that happens in the first place! The irony is horrific. If kids are taught to be observant those horrid dog maulings are so much more avoidable.

    It's really annoying how everyone is falling all over themselves everywhere to get breed bans into place, but no one is pushing for classes for children to learn how to handle themselves around animals. They refuse to acknowledge that the child most likely had a lot to do with getting attacked, even if they didn't mean to or weren't even aware the dog was nearby. Breed bans won't solve anything. You can't force people to raise their dogs right and no goverment will waste money confiscating dogs from people who haven't passed "dog care classes". But "child/dog relationship" classes are far more cheaper, even free, and much easier to come by. And children are at least half the problem in dog attacks, and that part could be a lot more successful but no one is doing it - instead they are fighting a fight that can't really be won by going against the dogs.

    I may not have kids, but I haven't forgotten being one. How is a kid going to know to turn around and walk, not run, the other direction if they encounter a dog with raised hackles, if they have never been taught to do so and shown by example? Simply telling a kid is not enough of a guarantee. No one can be with their kids 100% of the time and chances are that kid is going to end up near a dog with no parent around. Are they thinking about what the parent said? MAYBE. That's a risk not worth taking. Are they thinking about when they saw a dog trainer demonstrate what NOT to do with an actual dog? A heck of a lot more likely than they are thinking about what the parent said. Let's talk about fear - dogs sense fear and interpret it as threat. If a child has not learned how to handle dogs, that child is likely going to have fear. Dog gets threatened, dog hurts kid. No one wins. And while the dog's owner that does not have that dog properly contained has a lot of the blame, the parent of the child does too, for putting that child in a situation that he or she had no chance to navigate out of before it was too late.

    If kids are not taught about sex, they end up in bad situations, and the child is blamed or the parents are blamed for not teaching the child necessary information. If they are taught about sex, they usually end up in much better situations than otherwise and parents are praised for having taught their children well. Why is the same consideration not given to OTHER unavoidable dangers in the world, especially dogs? Do parents REALLY think the child is NEVER going to encounter a dog they know nothing about, or worse, a dog that does not mean well? Are they really that ignorant? That's the same as thinking a child is automatically just not going to be having sex until they get married. I mean, really!

    I'm still not sure what the information overload is about, I mean if I had a kid I would want to know everything up front. Which is why I wrote that. I'm kind of the opposite, I guess. I'd be a heck of lot more likely to let my kids go play with a neighbor's puppy if I knew exactly what was going to be going on in full than just "oh hey come play with the puppy". If I didn't get details, I'd wonder "Is the puppy healthy, why do they want my kids anyway, who cares if they play with her, that's weird" - I figured if I made a point about needing the kids for socialization and training purposes, it would make her feel more at ease, not less. lol. See this is why I came here to ask parents, because my mind must work totally differently since I don't have kids in this respect. I know how *I* would react and feel and think with my own kids, I've thought of it often. But apparently knowing that and actually having kids is different, or I am just a weird would-be parent.

    When I approach more families about socializing the dog with their kids, I will keep it a lot more simple, but if I can't ask the kids to do any of those things it's not going to go any further than them just wanting to hold the puppy and leave it at that, or want to play games that teach it bad manners. That kind of defeats the purpose. But I can't NOT socialize the puppy either, being a terrier it will not just end up happy go lucky that easily. What is one to do, really? Am I just screwed because parents are so frickin' weird? lol
  6. I think that you're doing a good thing trying to get the puppy used to children, but you have to realize that not every parent will be comfortable with the idea. Most people are usually very protective of their children,myself included. Puppies wouldn't intentionally hurt a child, but it could happen. Even though it might be a small playfull bite, that could scar a child for life against dogs. Little children don't understand that the puppy was "just playing", they just remember that it hurt them.

    I had a problem with my daughter when a relative brought a puppy over to our house that barked at her when she got too close to it, it didn't try to bite, it just barked at her, but she's been scared of dogs ever since. I can't even get her close to a dog without her crying these days.

    I don't know about your neighbors intentions in this situation, but I will say that most parents only care about the safety of their kids, so I wouldn't take it personally if most people write to you that they wouldn't bring their kids over to get your puppy used to kids. Being a kid once upon a time is A LOT different then having your own kids. I'm a very good example of someone that talked a lot of crap( what I would and wouldn't do) before I had my kids. Things change when you have children.
  7. Lilyrayne

    Lilyrayne Chrisppie

    How parents react when a child is scared by a dog, as well as whether or not that child continues to be exposed to the dog after the scary incident, can have a lot to do with whether or not the child ends up scared of dogs. So can the scary incident itself. The situation with your daughter causing her fear of dogs could be any number of things that could have been done differently so that the incident did not make her scared of dogs ever since. Same applies to how the parent projects the dog playing and accidentally hurting as well... I know this because I have seen several small children whose parents took appropriate measures, "damage control" if you will, and were able to help even a kid less than a year old understand this basic concept. None of them ended up scared of dogs for life. It was all stuff I would not have thought of, since I am not a parent, but it worked. It is possible as long as the child doesn't have any real psychological issues to begin with (and maybe then, I don't know, I have never seen that accomplished to know.)

    Chances are if a child has been socialized with a good dog or puppy or cat or whatever several times a week since infancy, getting scared by such an animal becomes an incident that will likely not happen or if it does, it is so easily "repaired" it's ridiculous. They are used to it, and it's not so traumatizing when something unexpected does happen. It is much more traumatizing if the poor child has not been exposed and socialized to any kind of animal and then experiences something shocking and probably negative on top of that. It makes a huge difference. Animals are a major part of civilized society, so I find it absurd when a parent thinks he or she can actually get away with not socializing the child with such animals and not have it have a negative impact later - animals are everywhere and there's little chance your child will make it to adulthood without encountering one!

    You will never see a child of a dog trainer, animal handler, or anyone of that sort having any kind of fear of animals - and you can bet that child has been injured for real (MORE than nips and scratches - guess what, it won't kill them!) more than once by any kind of animal. There's a reason for that. Look at Bindi Irwin, for example. Do you really think she's never been injured, barked at, or even charged at by an animal? Ha, doubtful. Yet she has no fear to walk down a runway with a snake around her that is as big as she is.

    Again, we come back to: it's all on the parent, and parents are ironically putting their children in danger in spite of themselves, and now, allowing fear to take root when it didn't have to. That is the essence of this entire thread, really... NOT the socialization of a puppy. That was just the catalyst for me to bring up the real topic that irks the crap out of me: the endless cycle of lack of education about the animals we live with in this society, for both parents AND children, that results in unncessary injuries and psychological trauma to all involved. And worse, the blame for the injuries and trauma is being placed where it doesn't belong - on the animals. That just keeps the cycle going, and it's a vicious one - in a lot of ways.

    (P.S. changed the title to better represent what this thread is really about)
  8. No, my daughter is VERY sensitive to her emotions and the puppy just hurt her feelings. She doesn't want to be around dogs right now because she keeps telling me that the puppy hated her. It just happened a week ago. My son got over it immediatly with no negative effects, but he has a completly different personality. Not all kids are going to react the same way no matter what the parent says or does. It's not bad parenting at all. I did the same thing with both kids and one is just taking longer to heal. So I guess that's good parenting with my son but not my daughter since she didn't just snap right out of it?

    I LOVE animals..especially dogs, but you have to understand that not all people do. I've actually met people that hate dogs. If a person chooses not to have animals in their life..then that's their choice. Just because you love dogs so much doesn't mean that everyone is going to share your affection for them.

    By the way..we had 3 dogs up until 6 months ago, so my kids have never been scared of dogs before. The dogs are still with my relatives...we just don't have room right now for them.

    I wouldn't have a problem letting my kids come over to play with the puppy...but I would never want them to pull tails/ears or anything like that.
  9. Sorry, Double post.
  10. Lilyrayne

    Lilyrayne Chrisppie

    Thank you for your well thought out and reasoned, calm post. And for not pulling out the "I'm a parent you're not 'nuff said naner naner boo boo" defense that so many parents use, lol.

    No, your daughter just needs extra, more creative measures to help her than your son does. If it was only a week ago, then now is a GREAT time to take a pro-active approach and try as many things as you can to help your daughter feel better about it while it's still fresh in her mind. Don't sit back and give up because whatever you tried didn't work, keep trying, something will work. She's sensitive? Great, you know her better than anyone so you are the perfect person to think of something that will work with her sensitivity, just keep trying. It's never a lost cause, and it's not too late to prevent those hurt feelings from taking root and growing into something worse.

    I never said anyone had to LOVE dogs. It's not about having them in their life either. I am talking about respect for them, and other animals, for what they are: ANIMALS. Respect for sharing this planet with them. Someone can hate dogs all they want, but EVERYONE is much better off if that person knows how to prevent themselves from getting hurt by one. When a kid does something stupid like stick his arm under a neighbor's fence to tease the neighbor's dogs - that has nothing to do with whether or not the kid doesn't like dogs or his parents have chosen not to have dogs in their life - that has EVERYTHING to do with that kid's parents not teaching him respect for animals and how to behave oneself around them for safety's sake. Simply TELLING him is often not enough, he'd have probably kept his arm if it had been made a reality for him that animals are ANIMALS and you can NOT go about just doing whatever you want around them and expect to be ok. He probably wasn't even thinking about how those dogs have mouths that hurt - I'd bet money his parents never let him get nipped by a much more harmless puppy.

    6 months can be a long time for a kid - did you ensure that she had contact with dogs several times a week during then? If not, can you really know for sure that those 6 months without regular (at least weekly) contact with dogs didn't in SOME way contribute to your daughter being startled and getting her feelings hurt by being barked at in the first place? Maybe they did, maybe they didn't.

    If you did, then yes maybe your daughter is sensitive, but it WAS only a week ago, like I said a minute ago it is not too late to come up with creative ways to keep it from BECOMING what I have spent most of this thread talking about. It's not about making her like them, it's about helping her come to the understanding that dogs really are just animals and they don't think and feel the way we do, it's the first step to helping her not make mistakes later that get her hurt for real. But, you have a chance to help her grow to be someone that likes dogs and NOT be one of those people that hates them, so why not?

    Well, sorry to be blunt, but it needs to be said - don't be suprised if you end up owning a dog that someday bites your child's nose off or disfigures a face, because he or she pulled a dog's tail despite how many times you told them not to - #1 because the dog was not conditioned to understand not to attack a human over this and #2 because the child did not learn early on how to handle a dog properly (such as not yanking the tail too hard).

    I would NEVER reccomend that a child pull tails or ears except in a strictly controlled environment with a professional dog trainer that can explain the consequences of doing it to a dog that they have not been given permission to do so - not to mention they get to learn how to be gentle with a dog - a kid gets a hands on experience with gentle handling vs. yanking and why yanking is bad this way. That is what I was offering. A good trainer would not let a child that is too young to understand these concepts participate in such things. Kids are going to eventually have their hands around a furry tail or ear - isn't it better they know what they are doing with it?
  11. Uhhh...I kinda think you're turning this whole dog thing into a bigger issue than it needs to be.

    My aunt has never liked dogs. She's not afraid of them, she just flat out doesn't like them. My friend is the same way towards cats. Neither one of them abuses animals--they just avoid them. It hasn't become a disabling factor in their lives. Yeah, it's important to teach your kids about animal safety...but in this day and age, there's about 1,001 other things parents have to worry about constantly, so maybe plotting out regular sessions of dog handling instruction just isn't at the top of their list.

    I think it's time for you to let this one go.
  12. ladydragon282

    ladydragon282 Member

    Wow, a lot of information and ideas in this thread. I would like a chance to respond to all, but will try to limit myself to my own, or familial, experiences.

    First of all, this is an important issue. It seems that almost every week there is a mauling, or biting, or some other form of accident involving a child and a seemingly domesticated dog in my area. This may not be true in all areas, but in my neck of the woods it is. I think helping families to teach their children the warning signs of a dog that may not be friendly, or when they may have gone too far with a pet, or other animal in their life, is a very good thing, and something that I would jump at the chance to do. Especially if the person asking me was a person I knew was a professional in this area. I would trust them not to endanger my children, or the animal for that matter, just to make a point.

    I know that all children are different, my two boys are as different as night and day in what bothers them, and it does take lots of trial and error to sometimes find the right combination that works to ease them out of seemingly similar situations. So, I understand where you are coming from Wandering Soul, and in no way does the fact that your daughter hasn't recovered as quickly as your son mean that you are a bad, or irresponsible, parent. You sound like a very loving parent, and one that wants what is best for your kids, and also knows their personalities well. That is something of rarity in my experience, in my extended family at least. I salute you for that. :)

    Lilyrayne, honey you sound very passionate about what you do. I know it is very hard to see another point of view when yours makes so much logical sense, but sometimes we need other points of view to make us see our own more clearly. Hopefully, other people will be willing to do as you have and actually listen, or read rather, what someone says and give them the respect they deserve for having a differing opinion, as you have done.

    People should learn about animals, all of them to some degree. As Lilyrayne said, we do share this planet with them, and we do encounter them almost every day, whether they are our own, wild, or someone else's domesticated animal. Panic, fear, and misunderstanding are making some breeds very hard to come by, or even own in some areas. They are trying to ban Pitbulls in some parts of the country, because of bad owners, just plain bad dogs, and bad situations that people don't fully understand how to deal with. I am not saying that all maulings, bites or other kind of incident is 100% avoidable, but more are than people think. Something as simple as the way you carry yourself around a dog can be a trigger, and if you know the signs enough to recognize that the neighbors normally happy, friendly spaniel has decided he wants to eat you then you can react properly and without panic to you or the dog. I think this is an issue that is important, because it can be any kind of dog, or horse, cow, goat, pig, cat...etc. The list goes on. Ill handling of any of these animals, intentional or otherwise, could end with hurts much worse than a mere puppy play nip.

    I guess my rather long winded opinion is simply this. All of you have made excellent points about timing, different styles of parenting, how kids and people are all different, and about how it isn't something that people really think about on that kind of level. But, I think Lilyrayne has also made her point, just as well, about the importance of such things, and I know for a fact that such things help the child as well as the dog, from personal experience. It isn't something that should be an afterthought when the neighbor's kid gets bit, or the boy down the street is killed because he ran from a dog because he didn't know any other way to do things. My cousin is alive because of such teachings, and it is something that we have all learned in my family, from the time we were very young.
  13. Lilyrayne

    Lilyrayne Chrisppie

    Thank you ladydragon, for your kind and respectful, thoughtful response, especially towards my message here.

    To the rest of you, I know that a lot of you are not going to agree with me or take me seriously, especially since the idea that people who don't have kids have no right to say anything anywhere runs rampant.
    But that's okay, because...

    I know that somewhere, someday, a parent will read all that I have written here, and WILL take me seriously, will take heed of my warnings and advice, and WILL put these things at the top of their list because they realize the reality of these situations and their importance. As a result, this parent will end up ultimately saving their children's limbs... or lives. That alone is enough for me to pursue this cause of educating as many people about this topic as passionately as I have been doing, regardless of the naysayers who will be eating their words when it happens to their child - because they did NOT put it at the top of their list somewhere.

    Granted, it won't happen to every child or adult, as it has been pointed out, many people have managed to be lucky enough to not encounter situations where they've been hurt one way or another. But as concerned for their kids' safety as parents are, I would say this is not a risk worth taking. These incidents are far more of a reality than many people realize. I'd personally rather sacrifice a little bit of my time each week, especially if it is being handed to me on a silver platter of sorts, a small price to pay to ensure my child has a better chance at keeping all their limbs and facial features intact, or even living. Not to mention learning respect and gentleness for the world around them.

    Thanks to those who have exhibited maturity, calmness and thoughtfulness in their responses even if they do not agree with me, and for doing so without the derision, sarcasm and disrespect. I know this was a difficult topic to consider, and appreciate your doing so. But for now, this is all I am going to say on the topic, unless someone has questions about all of this, I will gladly respond.

    Respectfully, -Lily
  14. SucculentFlower

    SucculentFlower earthfirst!

    ALoha Lily~ okay this is my hit: you are operating at a whole other level than your neighbor. You have canine consciousness and it's evident, very evident. It's neat & refreshing to see this consideration. It's been a while for me since I've encountered it.

    How do I know this, well (not just how your broke down the behavior that your puppy needs to be taught from a canine's point of view) but because I used to live in a very canine orientated life for 2 years at a wolf sanctuary, and we would "go there", meaning really trying to understand every nuance of canine behavior.

    Wolf language can be intimidating and bewildering for the uninitiated. But when you volunteer to learn, you set aside your human preconceptions and learn that whole new language.

    Your neighbor lady, she's not wanting to "get it". Understand and share in the development of the behavior of this puppy. A lot of people have interactions with animals and are clueless to the subtleties of animal talk. You know that whole "stewards over animals thing". It's an intelligent approach, and I would say let her and her fear & suffering go, release her over to the greater powers that be for then it will be taken care of.

    I appreciate what you are offering and how you were breaking it down. Even though you talked about challenging behavior with the tail pulling and food bowl thing , I get it, and I would put my Son in that situation with you because I understand.

    My husband had an experience with a guard dog when he was a boy and never really got over it. He still tells all dogs with his unconscious body language that he's afraid of dogs. He says he's not afraid but that's not what is evident.

    I am hoping to help my Son learn animal behavior not based out of fear but based out of connecting with the language of that animal. It all has to start somewhere and little puppies are a good opportunity. For a kid to experience puppy energy and clue into what that mindset is like, can give them a clue as to how intense little bodies can be!

    We had a great opportunity to pet some goats last month. WHat was really unplanned but a good idea was that we ate some carrot sticks, edemame and peanut-butter & jelly sandwiches first and then went to go pet the goats, we got a great welcoming and lots of soft licks to our fingers!:)

    My son has had experiences with dogs too. ANd he's a rascal himself, so he's pulled China's tail and she rumbled at him. We watched and talked about it to both the dog and the child. China was a dominant rotweiller mix but deferred to me and I never allowed my son alone (not that I thought it was a high risk situation, but she liked to knock him over with her butt and lick him. He thought it was just too much) she's passed on now, but also other experiences with animals of all kinds I am hoping to get him to have, as we share this planet with so much sentience we never even think about.:grouphug:

    Another thing hit me about your neighbor. I think not getting hooked by her would be good. But someday blow her mind with your preciousness and your higher consciousness!
  15. You're welcome. I don't think that anyone that uses the " I have kids and you don't" makes a difference, it only causes problems. I will say that having kids has completely changed how I used to think about life and things in general, but that may not be true for everyone. When I said that I wouldn't want my kids coming over and pulling tails or ears, I wasn't really thinking about the fact that someone would be there watching to make sure that they wouldn't get hurt, even though a harmless nip or two wouldn't hurt anyone, it would just scare them.

    I have to admit that your post really has me thinking about the situation between animals and humans. I never thought about "conditioning" people and animals before.

    We already had one dog when our kids were born, but we got two puppies when they were only 3 months old, so they basically grew up around them. I can't tell you how many times my kids have pulled tails/ears, or even tried to "ride" the puppies. I always explained to them that you don't treat animals like that, but I never considered the fact that it might be beneficial for the animal too. My kids know to treat animals with respect, but they also know that not all animals might not react the same when they get close to them. I don't want to scare them, but I want them to have a realistic view that not all animals are "people" friendly. My kids know to use a little bit of caution even though they love animals in general.

    I want to thank you for putting this post on here, I know it's really made me think.
  16. Allonym

    Allonym cheesecake slut

    honestly... it comes across moreso as "i dont want to be involved with you" than "z0mg puppy biting is because of the devil!", yknow? i think shes just distancing herself from you. move on, find someone else whos kids love puppies and the parents are ok with all that, all will be well in the universe
  17. ladydragon282

    ladydragon282 Member

    Firstly, I agree the situation with the neighbor is undoubtedly avoidance at this point. However, I think the conversation had moved past that some time ago, into a much more important topic of what children should learn in regards to the way they deal with, handle, and react to animals.

    Which leaves me in complete agreement with Wandering Soul and Succulent Flower when they thanked Lilyrayne for bringing up the topic and fighting for it so passionately, and intelligently. Even someone with the life experiences with animals that my kids have had would benefit from the opportunity to learn more from someone trained, and more knowledgeable than I am, in the ways of dogs. I know enough to teach them how not to hurt themselves and some obvious warning signs, but I personally don't have the knowledge to teach them the more in depth signals and body language that someone like Lilyrayne could teach them. If I lived anywhere near her, I would snap up this opportunity that she is offering, in a heartbeat.

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