Open Challenge to the Faithfully Religious

I am a firm believer in science, more specifically learning from observation. Its seems to me most people are the same, save a few. It pains me to see so many young people simply undisputedly accept the age old teachings of their ancestors. because of this frustration, I have devised a (relatively simple) challenge.

The rules are simple, using ONLY FACTS, disprove the following passages. remember, this is only for people of faith who believe in the LITERAL description of God, that is, the man in the clouds who dictates right and wrong, as well as creating the Earth, and all other Biblical miracles.

*People since the beginning of history have worshipped the sun, as the giver of life and the creator of Earth.

*People also tracked the passage of the stars, not only for navigation, but creating myths about the constellations.

*The earliest religions followed the pattern of the sun as a format for their saviors, including Mythra, Horus and Odin.

*that pattern is as follows, born to a virgin, on or around Dec. 25th, birth is presided over by three kings following a bright star, 12 disciples, dead for three days, and resurrection.

*the story of Christmas is purely astronomical, as the star Sirius (the star in the East) aligns with Orions Belt (three Kings) on Dec. 25th. and point to the sun rise (savior).

*throughout the winter the sun seems to rise lower and lower (in the Northern Hemisphere) until it reaches its lowest point. this happens on Dec 22nd. for three days, the sun does not move, creating the illusion of death.

*during the suns "death", it resides in the vicinity of the Southern cross, alluding to crucifiction.

*every 2150 years, the suns rise during the spring equinox takes place under a different constellation. this period is known as an age. The current age is that of Pisces. the next will be Aquarius.

*when Moses brings the commandments from Sinai, he smashes them because the Israelites were worshipping a golden calf. Moses represents the age of Aries (4300-2150 BC), and the calf the age of Taurus (2150-1 BC). Moses commands them to kill one another as a means of purification.

*Jesus represents the new age, that of Pisces. Hence, Jesus' symbol is the fish, which is mentioned repeatedly in the New testament.

This should be a good start. Im going to bed, but I will add more later. I look forward to your replies. remember, this is not meant to be insulting, rather an alternative view to an accepted story.

 

Where are the passages you want disproved?

Why don't you use facts to prove that a "God" does not exist?

What do you believe in? The big bang theory.... explain how we got from that moment to where we are now.... using FACTS only!

I'm not a religious person, but I know that faith isn't based on FACTS... if it were, it wouldn't be called FAITH.

 

Well if you want to get down to the nitty gritty, give me one thing science has proven, and I will tell you otherwise.

Science doesn't set out to prove (absolutely), science intends to show (beyond reasonable doubt) with the best available evidence some natural phenomena. science is only disproven and supported, never proven...

 

damn, you guys reply fast! I accidentally hit enter and submitted before I was done, but I edited it.

 

This really isnt an issue of science v. faith. Im merely trying to bring about a lively discussion about the true roots of the birth-death-resurrection deity format. of course I cannot disprove the existence of God, as faith itself seems to be a significant piece of evidence. I really cant chronicle the history of time, as I wasnt there for all of it, but yes I do believe in the Big Bang theory, as it is the most credible explanation of the greatest mystery of all time.

 

I'm chompin' at the bit, but the rules shut me out, since I'm not a Biblical literalist. Let me just say that even biblical literalists, especially the Puritans, concede that Jesus was probably not born on December 25, or even in December, and that the date for the holiday was borrowed from sun-worshipping pagans,so a lot of these parallels seem beside the point.

 

I agree with Okiefreak. I careful reading of the bible shows that Jesus was more than likely born about Oct 1, 2 so the parallels between the Christ and sun worship are not valid

 

But what about the rest? 12 disciples, heralded by a star in the East and three Kings. The fable of Jesus's resurrection matches earlier pagan ideas of the "sacrificial god" (in some areas the Sacrificial king as well, i.e the "King of the Bean", still practised in Portugal without the whole sacrifice part). He dies and is reborn, sometimes at harvest time, sometimes at the winter solstice.

 

The beauty of astrology is that it's vague and ambiguous enough that it can cover just about any situation: three, twelve, seven, nine...Pick a number, I'll find you the stars and make the appropriate links to real events. My guess is that the sacrificial god is an archetype, that probably is linked to the harvest cycle. I'm thinking Xipe Totec. The relevance, if any, to the "fable" of Jesus' resurrection depends on how willing you are to make plausible but unproven inferences on the basis of superficial similarities. In some cases, the myths may have borrowed from Christianity (e.g.,Mithras, Attis). In others, the gods were not exactly resurrected (e.g.,Osiris). If you look at differences in the details, the parallels might not seem so striking. For links to the uncanny parallels between the assassinations of Abraham Lincoln and J.F. Kennedy, see:http://www.school-for-champions.com/history/lincolnjfk.htm; http://hnn.us/articles/1109.html . Spooky, eh? Or just coincidence?

 

thats besides the point. Righteous Christian people have this belief that the story of Christ is an original, factual matter. This is false. Your absolutely right about the archetypal status of Jesus. He is merely a new face on an old concept. because we (at least in America) are taught next to nothing in school or social situations about ancient religions, we have no reference when we discuss contemporary religion. It seems to most of us that the story of Christ is not only unique, but concrete, due to the lack of evidence pointing otherwise. After all, why on Earth would our parents lie to us?

 

the notion that Christ is just a story built off of other religions seems way more farfetched than the notion he was real. I hate the idea that the government has massive conspiracies to keep us all christian so we will behave and never discover anything about the rest of the world.
you got your information somewhere didn't you? if THEY didn't really want you to know anything, then you wouldn't. that knowledge is openly available to anyone that is interest.

that being said, the story of Jesus and Christianity is one of the most wide-spread and accepted religions on the face of the earth. if it was just a story, do you ever think it would have taken off like it has? if you were living 2000 years ago, you probably would know about religions that the story of Jesus "borrows from". why then would ppl accept this particular story so advently? I agree that Jesus' message is not unique. Many other religions preach the same thing. But, let's assume there is a God. Would it be so impossible for him to work his will in various ways, to appeal to various people? I've used this metaphor before but, I see religions as fingers on a hand. they all branch out and spread apart and they differ minutely, but fundamentaly they all come back and serve the same thing. The hand. AKA...God.

 

you obviously didn't read my post, I said facts only. But I will entertain you. First of all, how is it that the idea that all religions are based on the same concept seem more unrealistic than a magic zombie who grants wishes? I mean someone did say that you cant disprove the existence of the easter bunny, but people dont worship him. You hate the idea that governments lie to stay in power? thats like saying I hate the idea that the Nazis killed Jews by the millions. Ya, it was horrible, but thats no reason to say it didnt happen. the information is available because there are too many people aware of the injustice of authority nowadays for them to simply remove dissenters, so they use other means, such as ostracizing them from society as "wackos."

The story of Christ IS the most wide spread beliefs in the world, you are right about that. Before Christ it was the story of Zeus and the pantheon, and before that it was the story of Mythrra. In the 14th century the world WAS flat. it isnt anymore. perspective changes. belief is NOT evidence, no matter how much the believers think it is. evidence can be observed, belief only expressed and felt.

You say 'lets assume there is a god.' Lets assume there isnt, and your entire argument falls apart. you'll probably say that isn't valid as it is based on presumption, but then so is your statement. lets assume god is a tool created by the ruling class. god teaches to respect authority, to work hard and never question. God teaches that pleasure is the work of the devil. God teaches to kill in his name those who are different. It seems to me you simply want to cling to your arcane ideals because change and the unknown scare you. you probably fear the concept of death. God serves as a comfort for you, and assurance that we are here for some purpose. I may be wrong, only you know, I dont care if you disagree with me, I respect that, but dont lie to yourself.

 

Although the last statement seems to be true, here is what science HAS proven.
IMHO, science has proved beyond doubt one very important truth: that the world we're in is based on laws, that we can understand these laws and use them to manipulate this world around us. Look: relativity theory may sound a complete nonsense to you, but its technological applications WORK!
OK, so far so good. So, we CAN learn things about the world around us, and prove that knowledge to be true -- by application. Let's remember this.

And then this question about God the Creator and Master of the Universe. If there are laws, there is someone to make them work! And it is not us anyway, we are only on some first stages of studying these laws. Then WHO? The question, let me tell you that, is very clear and accurate and scientific. Then there should be a clear and scientific answer, no? Big bang, or no big bang -- I'm asking scientifically: WHO caused all these things, of which the science can explain the mechanism?

Suppose, you have a 100$ in your pants' pocket; who put it there? Or is it a bad question? Oh, I see: even if it wasn't you and you really don't remember how it got there, you will tell me: it was somebody. This is scientific approach. Unless you prefer to hide from the realities of life for some reason.

How do you like this?

 

Hi NorCaliGreenFiend,
I have to ask, what do you consider to be a fact? And what do you consider to be proof of a fact? So we can have a common ground to start with. I mean I could lay out all sorts of things I think are facts but if you don’t consider them to be facts what point is it? So I’d like to know what a fact is to you.

 

Religon is one of the oldest and most enduring aspects of human culture.

This tomb is dated 2500 years BC. The sun shines through the window
over my head on one day only, the Winter Solistce.

 

The Qur'an teaches that Allah sent prophets to every corner of the earth (Jesus being one of them). According to Muslim tradition, there were 124,000 such prophets. Obviously, not all were saying exactly the same thing, but the basic message is there. The Qur'an (29:46) says: "We believe in that which has been bestowed upon us, as well as that which has been bestowed upon you: for our God and your God is one and the same, and it is unto Him that we surrender ourselves."

 

I did read your original post, which did not entirely contain "facts". It's just like when people try to predict the end of the world by reading the bible. anyone can interpret anything to make it anything.

i mean what is fact to you? you say the world isn't flat anymore. Have you ever flown or sailed around the world? do you know for sure it isn't? I would so most likely no...you've just accepted what you've been told. but, I mean, the government could be lying to you just to stay in power. Fact is a very subjective thing believe it or not. people are gonna argue with me about that but think about time. time is subjective. compare an hour in a prison to an hour with your gf. which last longer?

all the things you have said that God teach are false just to let you know. I think you were saying them from the perspective of if he was a tool created to control ppl, but either way, they are false. I've noticed you've assumed a lot about me too. I've had many extreme changes in my life, and i've noticed that God is only the real constant in this world, God and Love. I dont fear death, what happens will happen.

Now I dont want this to get ugly, but Im just trying to point out things. You can't say that my argument isn't based on fact, when you have taken your argument out of the realm of "fact" from the very beginning. see okies post at the beginning of this page for reference.

 

your saying god doesnt teach respect for authority, or to work hard? sounds like youve never even been to church. If you want to dispute every thing I say as being subjective, fine I know what I believe, just like you do. you can poke holes in my logic all you want, just remember that your logic is one big hole. to be fair, not one of you have taken me up on my challenge. Maybe because you cant? i say your argument isnt based on fact because you used that term 'assume.' Its NOT fact, its conjecture.

 

Hi NorCaliGreenFiend,
I will gladly take up your challenge but like I asked before I need to know what you consider to be a fact. So we don’t waste each others time.

 

You didn't come here to issue a challenge. You came to try and belittle us. btw your very hypocritical. everything you accuse me of doing you've already done in this same thread. and if my logic if a big hole then so is yours. we can't prove our faith with facts b/c it is FAITH! seems like a simple concept to me....on the other hand, you can't disprove it either. im pretty sure you already know that. the post above is a clear example that you don't even really want to hear our opinions, you are already locked into you beliefs and have no interest whatsoever in what we have to say. you just want us to respond so you can pick every little thing apart.