Once in a while you get shown the light...

Nobody is perfect. Total 100% non-violence is impossible. By our very digestive and immune processes we kill millions of creatures. However, we can each do the best we can, according to our abilities. What is really important is the attitude we take into it. I dont eat meat, but I do consume dairy sometimes. However, I feel that my net contribution to the cause of animal welfare is pretty good, since I give my time and effort to a lot of activities that help.

Forget about everyone becoming vegan. If everyone inthe world who eats meat, continued to do so, but reduced their meat intake by half, wouldn't that make a huge change?

 

Drumminmama, that made me smile. That's great you made such an influence on someone

 

lol

 

This reminds me of something I was reading on John Robbins' website. Have a look, it's a good read.
http://www.foodrevolution.org/letter.htm

 

Maybe he is a little irritated now, but honestly... it will probably influence him more than anything; that's my personal opinion anyway.

I think when you live with someone like that long enough, it begins to rub off on you whether you like it or not. My dad used to give me so much shit for it, and he still does--just to give me a hard time--- but I can see him eating and living differently more and more everyday.

It used to be " a steak and potato" for him at night. Sometimes a few steaks. Now, you can barely get him to eat anything that isn't salad or veggies and fruits. He's eaten half my bag of soy nuts already. And, he doesn't go wild over hunting or fishing anymore either. He claims the reason he doesn't like to hunt very much anymore is because after I got our kitty, Smokey, he *realized* how much animals and other creatures really DO feel. Honestly, I think that's bogus...we've had dogs since I was a tot. I really think he's just starting to get my point of view... and of course, he won't EVER admit that lol.

He took me out for a vegan dinner on my birthday. They serve vegetarian, vegan, AND omnivorous dishes there. He went with a vegan dish, which shocked the hell out of me.

The fact that he's willingly ready to prepare me vegan meals lately is odd too. Good, but unlike him. A few years ago he would have been trying to coax a steak into my stomach.

Now, the same thing happened with my boyfriend, his mom, and my mom.

My mom actually had me take her to the store to pick out vegan products. She wanted to do it for health--- none the less, a few years ago, she thought I was the one who was going to die from not enough "Iron" or "Protein"

My boyfriend attempted to go veggie. Failed, but he tried none the less. And if you knew my boyfriend, you would be surprised as hell that he even tried.

His mom... used to think I was a whack job too. Recently she's actually told me she thinks what I do is "healthy and humane"

When I went vegan... all of these people... every single one of them that I mentioned, thought I was crazy, and wanted to shoot anyone that may have influenced me into going vegan.

Maybe they've just come to terms with it, but I really think they're beginning to see the bonuses.

My boyfriend has said countless times, that even just from me going veggie to vegan, he's noticed my energy, and my HAIR has improved drastically.

I suppose the only time they really get frustrated is when I make orders difficult at a restaurant, or get upset if I find something un-vegan in my food. I guess it's my job though, to do my best to carry on with my vegan ways, but not make a scene.

 

ugh

i know this is an opinion... but this is one of my few opinions that i think is actually correct, "universally"

humans eating meat is not "unethical" (as far as consideration for the good of the planet as a whole), it's the WAY we get the meat that needs change.

you can be all for animal rights and realize that it's not just eating meat that's harming ourselves and the rest of nature, it's the way we build the most vile factories and treat animals like nothing but a product. it's bad for everything because, to make a "better" product and easier profit, we process and inject all the health that we could get from them out. we pollute rivers and land like mad and create an enormous surplus of animal products in this country alone. nowhere else in unwesternized cultures can you find anything like this... it's insane...

it's becomming more and more apparent to our health "specialistis" that we dont need nearly as much meat as we consume. i forget how much the meat section in our food pyramid has shrunk but i know it's been a considerable amount in the past 10 years. what we need is a more round diet. meat every now and then (wayyy less than what we're used to) and a lot more vegitables, fruit, and grain. disease would go down so much that we'd look back on ourselves and laugh. especailly if we stopped processing our food to hell... but that's another topic.

anyway, i believe that being vegetarian is self righteous, confused, bullshit. however, one may as well be vegetarian, not as a rule, but as no other choise in this country, if you're concerned about the way we treat animals...

god i'm ranting i dont wanna rant but you get the idea...

 

Really? Is it self righteous to refuse to eat your pet goldfish? How about your dog or kitten? Probably not, unless you're a total nutjob. The reason why people will lvoe their pets and treat them as their own children, while continuing to eat other animals, is that they can see their pets emotions, their joy and sorrow, their love, their sadness.

When was the last time you looked into a cow's eyes? They are such gentle, benign creatures. The cow takes very little, just a little open space and some grass. And think how much she gives us through he rmilk. An essential part for almost every cuisine in the world. Have you seen a cow grieve when her calf is killed? All the cows get together and rally around her. She doesnt eat for days. Animals have every human emotion. They just cannot express it as we do. In many ways they are more noble, they don't know deceit or fraud, they dont lie or cheat, nor do they hold grudges. To eat cow would be like eating my own mother.

 

hi? reading what you want instead of what i'm saying? this is why i too agree that we need to treat animals with much more respect. not only because it's "ethical" (i do hate using that word, but you know what i mean...) but because it would be better for us personally aswell. i'm sorry i didn't go into why i think it's ethical... i thought it would be obvious that i agree with most of you on that.

btw, i'm not really sure we should have pets in the first place. not like this anyway.

no shit, so, lets stop eating meat like we need a cow a day to survive. we don't need fucking factories full of them.

"when you assume you make and ass out of you and me" get it hehe... i heard someone say it once, it's redicioulous, "ass u me".

what about dolphins that form revenge gangs and hunt down other dolpins that are either just in the wrong teritory or have "offended" one of their own?

what about lions that kill other males' cubs for their own genetic benifit? i can't think of an animal, off the top of my head, that won't kill for the possability of a shortage of food. either killing the young or weak and old, or eachother.

an image comes to mind that i saw watching the descovery channal a few years ago, of a monkey (i forget what type) sitting in a tree with a baby monkey in his hand. it was limp and dead and the one holding it seemed like he was amusing himself by continueing to smack the dead baby aganst the tree stump... of course, this was a few years ago so you didn't get to see too much footage of him bashing it's brains out before it was dead.

all animals engage in violence and aggression, including humans. i believe that we're all animals except we've evolved heavily in the way of tools and our minds' complexity is a result. hell, i don't even really believe that, it's just what it looks like and i have no reason to believe otherwise.

i don't think that there's any reason that we need to totally exclude meat from our diets. if it's a fairness issue, if we respect the animal by only taking when we need, we're being fair. they would - and do - do the same to us.

 

Like I said, I dont care if someone disagrees with me, as long as they have an opinion...an opinion thought out, not just taken from their ass. So, cool if that's what you think, but:
I think it was going a little far when you said being vegetarian is self righteous, confused, bullshit.

Back to the main topic of discussion:
I agree with you somewhat. But obviously not entirely. I think for the most part, any veggie with half a brain realizes factory farming and the like is most at fault for our problems... the diseases, the environmental issues that tie in with farming, etc.

But, the only way you're going to get all these people to cut down on meat, and stop factory farming, is in a perfect world, my friend.

Everyone is too concerned about convenience, taste, and price. It's a fast paced society we live in, and many people feel the only thing they have time or money for is McDonalds and the like. Clearly, most of us here, focus more on health and what not rather than convenience, etc.

The issue is... you're saying "if everyone started eating more fruits and grains, etc and had a little meat here and there things would be okay" ----

well that's a big IF.

Ifs are fantasies, daydreams. I could say the same "If everyone went vegetarian...." But I know it won't happen, so I don't. Remember, we don't live in a utopia full of intelligent beings. For the most part, people are pretty dull, pretty unthoughtful.

And half of the world DOESN'T care about factory farming. So how are you going to get everyone to care about it?

Yeah, people should care about their own health, and that should be good enough reason. But, people dont...people don't THINK. That was MY point earlier.

Just like, why the fuck did I start smoking? I couldn't tell you. I know it's horrible for my health, and I'd love to quit, but I suppose I have the same attachment to my cigarettes as some do to eating a burger 5 times a day. Not making excuses, I'm just saying that's how people ARE.

Anyway, you're missing the point. People don't go veggie or vegan just to reduce factory farming, or to enhance their health [although, that is a bonus of doing so]--- the main reason, any of us went vegan or veggie is because we feel that it IS unethical. Unethical in the sense that it's selfish to kill another living being for food, when we have plenty of other options to get nutrition aside from resorting to kill a creature. TO ME, it just doesn't seem logical to have to kill, say a cow, to eat, when I know I can eat beans, legumes, soy, nuts, seeds, etc to get protein.

You also went onto say you haven't seen an animal that wouldn't kill another animal as a last resort for food. Well, I don't know about you, but I'm not in any kind of position where I am in a last resort situation.

The issue between you, and lots of us in this forum is: we just have different beliefs. Different FIXED perspectives on things. You won't change my mind, anymore than I will change yours.

Which is also why you can never EXPECT society to shape up and start eating healthier as you mentioned. You just can't change people's minds on SOME things.

I really believe the only way things like that are possible, is if the person already is flexible on the idea. Whereas, my views regarding veganism and animals rights, are fixed. Set in stone. No one will ever change how I feel about it.

 

We dont agree that being vegetarian is something only confused self-righteous fools do.

I didnt assume anything that you didnt say. I dont believe it is possible to humanely kill an animal (unless it is perhaps very sick and beyond hope of recovery). Therefore, i believe in vegetarianism, which means we are at odds.

All animals are territorial. Neither here nor there. Animals dont kill unnecessarily. They dont lie or cheat. Theyre very up front about everything they do.

First of all we dont need animals in our diet, theyre in fact harmful to our health. They do the same to us...? Wow yeah, how many humans are and eaten every year, I wonder... My stand is that I would kill an animal just as soon as I would a human, which is never except possibly in self defense.

 

yea.. most of this stuff can only be agreed upon based on opinion.. i see what you're saying, i just see it in a different light.

no, we don't need meat, but you do agree that we do need dairy, right? (again, far less than most americans and western culture consume)

i didn't say that they kill us like we kill them... it's usually harder for an animal to get at a human as we usually have protection in almost every way. we also smell so bad and have such strange things surrounding us which can make them uninterested. i'm not saying that they do it oftian, just that it happens.

but that's really not my point, i'm just saying that we're both animals on this planet and nature isn't full of fuzzy-cute-mystic-bunnies.

as a side note... i thought it was common consensus now that humans are built to consume meat - not nearly as much as we do and we dont need it if we're not starving and/or hunting all day - it's just bad for us when we consume too much. especially without excersize or other sources of vitamins n such.

 

Then I hope you see why I found it rather offensive that you dismiss my entire lifestyle and the culture of my people as "confused and self-righteous bullshit."

No I dont.

Never said it was. Killing is part of the circle of life. However, our position in that chain is of herbivores. Our bodies are built that way.

Look who is assuming. It is by no means a common consensus. It may have been a 100 years ago in the west, but not anymore. We don't need it period. Worse, it is downright bad for us.

 

not actualy true....My wife and I have not and will not go veggie BUT we did decide to go organic which to us means NO support of factory farming and MUCH less meat and the meat we do buy is free range organic..and we did this because factory farming SUCKS...ethics over the killing of animals for food had NOTHING to do with it..so while we may be the exception to the above we are proof that it does happen..I can only hope that more people would choose to not support factory farming and its drugs and hormones..meat used to be seen as a luxury item something you didnt get all the time and people were thankful when they had it ..now its seen as a necessity

 

alright, as far as spirituality and personal morality, i give up. you're totally right to be offended . i was directing the "confused self righteous bullshit" statment at most modern american vegitarians. you might be surprised at how many of them just do it for the 'style' of it. it's really trendy here.

but it is not unhealthy to consume meat inmoderation (i mean not much and at most, a couple times a week) it even is healthy. if you can't discern that from facts today then look at all the older cultures that lived by hunting and gathering. they were in top health, healthier than most americans. and we are built to be able to consume it. it's red meat that's worst. and as far as dairy, yea, we don't need that but it's not necessaraly unhealthy. it just an easier way to get at the fats and calcium we need.

as far as the assuming thing, i can't ask an animal how it feels and empathize with it so i don't assume that it feels like i do. i'm not saying that it doesn't, just that anthropomorphizing can make a person attribute human feelings to anything... especially when it has eyes and a mouth.

 

Yeah I didn't say people go ORGANIC because they believe the killing of animals is wrong. I said veggie or vegan.

What you did makes sense. But, you're missing my point.

 

I wouldn't single out Americans--- but I agree that doing it for the "style" of it, is pretty lame. I'm not complaining, it's less meat consumed. ----
A lot of the people that I noticed, that do go veggie or vegan, that don't have any sort of passion for the topic, use health as a reason.

And, I see what you're saying that... if that's the only reason you're doing it, it's possible to be healthy without completely eliminating it from your diet.

I just can't really complain, because it works out to my ideal of everything, haha. Although, those people tend to irritate me at the same time, because others will get the wrong impression of the whole lot of veggies and vegans because of that.

Now regarding your last statement: Maybe I'm just different, or maybe lots of other veggies will agree with me--- but when looking at an animal through my perspective, I don't give the animal "human qualities"....Rather I think we are all very much alike, and very much connected. You can't dismiss that, considering you as well, said before "I have not seen any animal in the wild that does not eat another when in last resort situations" [or something to that affect]

People tend to forget, we ARE animals. We are different, just as a dog is different from a cat, or a lizard... but we are animals too. No matter how much people want to dismiss that and believe we are more developed and more civilized, it's the plain and simple truth.

We are less civilized and developed than we think.

 

not really because if we decided to go ORGANIC because we think factory farming sucks why couldnt someone go veggie just for that reason....and not because of some moral or ethical reason