Obama and ACORN

Really getting desperate aren't we? Bin Laden, and Ayers not enough now we have to invoke McVeigh? Visions of suicide bombers, torture by the vietnamese, but let's not focus on today's economy. One being drowned by similar misguided deregulation to the Savings and Loan scandals under Keating.

The republicans seem to have given up on the message that Palin and her moose/wolf hunting friends will save us from the great Russian menance of Putin's head floating over Alaska. They want us to hide in our closets now fearing old hippies acquitted of old crims, and scared to death of grassroots organizations seeking to get out the poor vote. But let's not focus on the financial rape of our country by the same old players, supported by the same old party.

Funny how Obama's birthplace (Hawaii, a US state) keeps coming up, but we never consider that McCain was born in Panama.

 

You don't listen very good do you. We are not just talking about allegations in Nevada. We are talking about thousands of voters in states all over the country. For instance....

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003808207_votefraud27m.html

This article not only talks about the biggest Voter Registration Fraud case in Washington history, but it also talks of the quality of people that ACORN employs. Do you want to talk about the paid employees that work for ACORN that have criminal records, drug addicts, child molestors, etc..? Want to talk about employees that admit to sitting at home smoking pot while filling out fake registration cards?

If you think we need to talk about McCain's gambling problems, then by all means, start a thread. Let's get it out in the open. Until then, I would rather hear you respond to the subject of Obama paying a corrupt organization that is known for fraud, and openly endorses him for President, hundreds of thousands of dollars.

 

I've made my case in about 2 or 3 posts, you keep this chesnut rolling. I'm not getting desperate about anything. You and a couple of others here would make excuses and justify anything questionable that would seek to tarnish you party's reputation. I don't think that is a secret around here. I think it is important to look at connections BOTH candidates have, and look at the characters of BOTH candidates. You have every right to start a thread about something you think McCain has done that is questionable, but instead you choose to make excuses and try to justify what Obama has done. Oh, and BooBoo was the one that brought up McVeigh. I just responded.

There are many issues we need to focus on, and this I believe is one of them. There is in fact several threads that discuss the financial situations in this country, which are "supported by the same old party". I haven't heard you making excuses for them. Why not?

 

You gotta admit, you do sound like a republican tool... I'd hate to be you at a party with beautiful women involved... oh wait, I remember BEING you when i was a kid, before I learned what the real world was like. BEFORE I had to fight a health insurance company over the emergency surgery that saved my wife's life. BEFORE "freedom fries". BEFORE I noticed the republican liars taking on the trappings of the common man in a never ending quest to screw the common man. BEFORE I realized the right wing clowns were so much more dangerous than the left wing clowns. And guess what? The more I hear Rev. Wright speak, the more I like him. I am white, and not the least bit threatened by his rhetoric. Especially since the church rhetoric I grew up with was way more incendiary. I mean, literally. They wanted us to burn records and books.

Acorn is just playing hardball. So are republicans when they purge voter rolls in violation of federal law. You know what Acorn's problem is? They believe too much in their "grassrootsness", so they hire poor, unqualified people to register voters. Those people get paid per registration, so they have an incentive to cheat. Just like students have an incentive to cheat on tests. is the answer to stop giving tests? Cancel school? No. It's OVERSIGHT. Which is why republican tools like yourself are allowed to sue them in court. Enjoy.

Here is an article describing what we REALLY need to worry about:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/09/us/politics/09voting.html?scp=1&sq=federal law voter rolls&st=cse

Here is another one:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/13/us/politics/13martin.html

Now that you've establish i can't call you out or disbelieve your shabby research simply because you are a republican tool, don't go whining that the New York Times can't be trusted. Of course, if you really believed one's associations can't cast doubt on one's ideas, you wouldn't even be talking about Acorn, Ayers, or Wright.

We've all paid so that rich people can get richer for the past 20 years. Who do you think pays for the security that allows the "free" market to thrive? It's time for the top branches to feed the roots for a while before the whole tree falls down. And it's time for YOU to wake up.

 

I don't deny that I sound like a Republican tool in a land of liberals, no more than I don't deny that I sound like a Liberal tool in a land of conservatives. Truthfully, I just don't find it interesting to sit around with likeminded individuals and parrot the same ideals. Debating sharpens the mind. Usually when I post here I am working, and Hipforums is one of the windows that I have open in the background. Periodically I take a break from work and come here to post, along with other forums. I do not take discussions here too seriously, and definitely don't take things personally. If I come across a certain way here, it is likely because of the population and the general sentitment.

BTW, I try not to discuss politics in my personal life. You do bring up a good point however, and something every bachelor should know. And that is to never bring up past girlfriends/love interests, religion, or politics around women. Keep your eye on the prize guys. Like they say, most women decide in the first few minutes if they want to fuck you or not. All you need to do is keep them from changing their mind.

 

you kind of avoided the rest of what i said, and decided to talk about yourself instead.

And by the way, if your politics show you to be original, thoughtful, and astute, people will find you very engaging, regardless of your conclusions. Your problem is you are mouthing a well worn line of attack that you heard somewhere else. So you just sound like a cookie-cutter version of a very bland cookie, despite your cool signature. Do you think William F. Buckley had any trouble talking to women? No, because he was all of the above. It's deluded know-nothing jackasses who turn people off, regardless of their religion or political persuasion.

 

My post was in response to your labeling. I avoided the rest of what you said because it is off topic and there is currently another thread that discusses that issue. If you would like to discuss voter purging we can discuss it here.

http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=328811&f=36

This thread was introduced four days ago and can be found on page 2. Which brings up my next point.

That is not necessarily true. Like in the media, controversy is what draws attention. Take a look at what threads get the most attention here. By your post count you appear to be relatively new here, but I suspect this is an alias of a HF veteran. If that is so, then you should recognize what type of threads float to the top of the list.

Of course I heard it somewhere else, hence my links. Do you think I just pulled it out of my ass? You talk about cookie cutter, your response is typical of people who refuse to disect the issue and resort to "well the other side does this".
Example:

If ACORN is committing fraud it is no more acceptable than "Republicans" (would like some specificity) purging voters. This thread is to inform people of the questionable links between Obama and ACORN.

Which Bill Buckley are you talking about? "Carson"?

 

Nope, I'm brand new here.

And ok, you don't want to reply. I can see why.

By "cookie cutter", I mean to point out that you are aping whatever the attack machine is saying, in the way they are saying it, Mr. Talking Points.

Interesting people have a way of discussing that which is controversial and making it seem sexy. You make it seem like a bad football match. Keep telling yourself you are sharpening your mind... GO MY TEAM!

And by the way, you are right, I see no moral difference between terrorism and other military tactics that target civilians. The only difference is that in an asymetrical war, the strong side engages in collective punishment and collateral damage, while the weaker side engages in terrorism. That is a function of resources and goals, not morality. War is by definition without morality.

Now, back to the topic. I believe it was "guilt by association". You claim Obama is the boogeyman because he associated with two boogymen and a boogygroup. I say - BULLSHIT!

First, anyone running for a state representative position will go to any event by anyone in support of them because they are in no position to pick and choose. Second, the boards on which Obama and Ayers served included many Republicans and Democrats, and non partisan businessmen. It's called public service. The Annenberg foundation? Seriously? You want to talk shit about Annenberg? It's organizations like that who pick up the slack when the dopes you support get elected and try to drown the baby in the bathwater.

Acorn? They are an organization with an admirable mission. They should be regulated just like everyone else, but no one has been able to show any intentional voter fraud on the part of Acorn. In fact, the cases you refer to were started in response to Acorn reporting suspicious activity all by itself.

It's time for Progressives to fight back. We are not going to sit back and take this culture wars crap and the rampant corruption that results from your bankrupt ideology. Acorn is a sign of things to come, so put your whining hat on, because for the next 12 years or so you are going to be crying ALOT.

 

..technical difficulties

 

hang on, i'm figuring out this quoting business... here goes:

Misleading at best. "Donating" is not the same as paying for a service. You are fiddling with the words to make your point, and taking off from there.

Front company for Acorn? Again, that is not true. CSI sourced a contract to Acorn that was paid for with a portion of that $800,000. That is a matter of public record. The actual amount that went to Acorn was about $80,000, not "close to a million".

Further, ACORN has not been indicted. Do I really need to pick this apart to make my point? Really? Even AFTER this has all been debunked? You would already know that if you weren't limiting yourself to thinking along partisan lines. It's that kind of thinking that gets us into stupid wars.

Let me give you an example, from an article by Michelle Malkin for the National review:

"...Don’t bother asking Barack Obama. He cut his ideological teeth working with ACORN as a “community organizer” and legal representative."

If you look it up, you will find Obama did indeed represent Acorn in a court case. Looks like a solid statement, right? Well, sure if you leave out that Obama was representing Acorn in a case ALONGSIDE the justice department.

In the end though, your basic assertion that Obama is guilty of being associated with these people is no less or more valid than the others on this board pointing out that you are a republican tool.

Here is the rundown on where the facts are: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/11/us/politics/11acorn.html?scp=1&sq=obama acorn&st=cse

 

I also thought I should point this out, since I just heard it on the radio:

Acorn is not allowed to decide for itself which registrations it turns in. So if an hourly employee they hire commits fraud, all they can do is flag the registration, but they still have to submit it. That's the rules. And they are good rules, by the way, because if I go around collecting voter registrations, then I pick and choose which ones to submit, I am holding just a bit too much power.

 

In the first post in which I provided links to this topic, I made the mistake of using the word donate. Immediately after than statement I quoted a source calling that exchange of money a "payment". In every other reference to the exchange of money in this thread I referred to it as a payment. Fiddling with words? No.

I would very much like to see the public record that itemizes these payments. Everything that I have read says that Citizens Services is a subsidiary of ACORN. Until the record is clear on these payments, I have no qualm calling Citizens Services a "front company" for ACORN. No matter what you want to call it, there are some questions that need to be answered.
Questions like these.

How many members of ACORN have been indicted and convicted of voter fraud? Enough to make one presume that the organization is not too concerned about preventing it? One would hope that an organization involved in advocating people's rights would be a little more careful in who they pay to conduct their services. Whether or not they condoned the activity or not, the prosecution of employees acting on their behalf is enough of a reason to raise suspicion. This is not a case of an isolated incident. Reports of this type of activity are rampant.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/10102008/news/politics/1_voter__72_registrations_132965.htm

What has been debunked? If was as simple as that, ACORN would not be under investigation, and we would not be having this discussion.

I want answers. All I have seen are some very questionable ties that have yet to be thoroughly explained and examined. I am curious as to what "facts" you think reside in the link you posted. Heresy.

For the record, you labeling me a "Republican tool" and making comments like "the dopes you support" quickly loses clout in your argument.

 

Oh, so you didn't mean to fiddle with words when you based your original premise partly on the word "donate"? There is a big difference. The fact that your citations disagree with you is really no defense. I've seen that line purposely blurred elsewhere and I have no reason to assume you were not up to the same thing. Considering that calling it a payment after calling it a donation does not clarify anything (ALL donations are PAYMENTS, but not all PAYMENTS are DONATIONS), you now seem to be trying to admit you are wrong without admitting you might be misled an misleading others. Seems to me you are letting your hormones do the talking.

A "front company" is generally thought of as a shell entity designed to provide cover for an illegitimate business. It is a loaded word and it is inaccurate at best. It implies deception. If I were a photographer for events, for instance, and I also rented the equipment, I might create a subsidiary to provide the rental. There are many legal and business reasons to do it. It is not considered deceptive by any means. But according to your "logic" that would be a "front company". For the record of the payments you refer to, go to fec.gov

To date, no "members of Acorn" have been indicted. Period. The indicted individuals were hourly employees paid by Acorn to collect registrations. Once hired, some of them committed fraud AGAINST ACORN, and when Acorn turned in the registrations collected by the people hired AS REQUIRED BY THE LAW, they also flagged those registration for the benefit of the elections officials receiving them. They did not have the option of not turning in those registrations. Acorn chooses to give poor people a chance to earn a bit of cash while helping out their communities, and the vast majority of these people do not commit fraud. You use words like "rampant" that really don't mean anything, and by the way, the burden of proof goes to the accuser. The vast majority of the registrations provided by Acorn are legit. If you have figures that show otherwise, please let us know. Further, suspicion does NOT equal guilt. For instance, I SUSPECT you are a republican tool, but that has yet to be PROVEN. It's possible you are just incredibly gullible despite being obviously intelligent.

everyone can follow the nytimes link and read an objective fact check. Also see above. Further, you are back on the guilt by suspicion thing. see above. Allegations and investigations don't amount to guilt.

I'm sorry, by what stroke of divinity did you become so important you can say things like "I want answers"? Everybody wants answers. Stomping your ideological feet on the ground and throwing a loquacious tantrum won't get you any. Maybe the problem is your questions. Go do some real research, and don't use a conservative blog as your starting point. You'll get answers.

I don't see how my use of loaded words is any different from your own. I'm not going to moveon.org or some other partisan source for my ideas, so that does make me less of a tool. Many of the sources you quote are questionable. The NYPost, for instance, is a tabloid written on the 4th grade reading level. Fox news is plainly partisan. (For all of you who have never lived in New York City, let me explain: New Yorkers have a few choices when it comes to daily newspapers. For the serious reader, you have the times and the wall street journal. they are called broadsheets, and are internationally respected news organizations. The NY Times is generally seen as the paper of record. Then you have the tabloids: the NY Daily News, and the NYPost. Both of them are written at a very low level and are more entertainment than serious news. The Daily News is a rabid liberal slant, while the Post is a rabid conservative slant.)

And by the way, "clout" refers to someone's support. Your last sentence there is a bit, further, and to which, being such as Palinesque.

And ok, I stand corrected. I simply assumed you would support the likes of John McCain, George W. Bush, Phil Gramm, and Grover Norquist. Do you?

I'm still waiting to know, by the way, why serving on the Annenberg foundation board would be suspect. They are a pretty conservative organization that studies education.

 

What all this hooplah about Acorn is really about.: It's about discrediting Obama, but more importantly it's about caging votes historically by the republicans. They don't want the poor and down on their luck to vote.

http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=the_republican_war_on_voting

You really need to read the entire article.

 

I find it humorous that what McCain and Palin poked fun at Obama about as "community organizing" is now their latest target of attack. First it was unimportant and laughable, now it's something we should all cower in our closets and associate with terrorist leanings.

At least his resume has more on it than a mediocre military career and a decades old senate position that has rarely produced any useful legislation except those benefitting his wealthy friends and gambling connections. Almost forgot he did work for Cindy's dad in the beer distributing game. But not quite clear on what his job duties were.

I am more impressed with a "community organizer", state legislator, professor of constitutional law, practicing attorney and U.S. Senator.

 

Exactly my point, which is why I used that term.

Maybe it implies deception because there is. I have not been convinced that Citizens Services is a legitimate organization and is not used for masking payments to ACORN.

Semantics. Like I previously stated. The investigation, indictments, and prosecutions is not a matter of an isolated incident. Habitual is a word that comes to mind. If ACORN is not directly giving orders, they surely are not raising their standards to prevent this activity.

Obama is running for the President of the United States. You don't think Americans deserve answers to questions like these?

Who is throwing tantrums? What I see is you taking these questions of ACORN's activites personal, and taking this to a personal level by throwing out labels like "republican tool".

"Clout" also refers to pull, or influence. You sour your argument by throwing out names, and in my opinion you lose credibility and respect by doing so.

I do not, and I understand you are new here so you may not have read my position on these people you mention.

That was in reference to another relationship between Obama and Ayers that was conveniently denied until evidence surfaced.

 

Give it up Wacky. The American public isn't buying it. Acorn is a lost front. Want to keep poor folks from voting I am sure Republican's will find a way to prevent them. They have in the past they will in the future.

To try and cast a "community organization" which your party laughed at during the convention now as a terrorist organization is laughable. Much like Putin's head rising over the the great state of Alaska.

Why don't we talk about taking North Korea off the terrorist list, or normalizing relations with Vietnam.

 

Look, I have no illusions about convincing you. People like you generally can't be convinced of anything, because you start with your conclusions. If that's not how you think of yourself, maybe you need to take a good hard look at the things you say.

I post for the benefit of those who are willing to look at the whole picture, not just the facts that suit them. You post aggressively, and include alot of "research" that is obviously gleaned from right-wing blogs. I'm here to counter that with aggressive posting with research collected from the most objective sources i can find. There are some things in the NYtimes links I posted that I wish were not true. Unfortunately, they are, and it reminds me that my candidate is not the Messiah.

Also, I make it personal because it IS personal. You are free to think what you want, and say what you want, but don't expect not to pay a social cost. I'm here to collect on that, and to be perfectly candid, you are low hanging fruit.

Go ahead folks, read up, and decide for yourselves.

For my benefit, who DO you support?

To answer you earlier question, by the way, William F. Buckley is the greatest conservative thinker this country has ever known, and the founder of The National Review. I would give alot to bring him back to life and have him over for dinner. He was a genius and an elegant man, and represents all that the Republican party has left behind to become an anti-intellectual fear mongering machine.

 

Where exactly is the Palin/McCain campaign on North Korea?

http://blogs.dw-world.de/acrossthepond/tim/1.7223.html

 

I take an objective look at the available information before I post. I understand what you mean when you say "people like you". You really mean, people that question the motives or practices of people that YOU adamantly support. The things I say, and the manner I say them, are often done so in a way that fuels discussion. If you haven't noticed, look at the home page of the Politics thread. The far right column contains the amount of views by members. This thread is rather high on the list, don't you agree? That means that people are reading this information, and whether they agree with it or not, it is making people aware. Mission accomplished.

Hahaha. You posted from one source. The New York Times. Is this an examply of your research? From the most objective sources you can find?

I may be a low hanging fruit, but you seem to be reaching pretty high.

Funny, I thought for a second you were talking about somebody else. You mentioned my signature, so I thought there was a chance you were talking about Carson from Beirut.