No need for a 'saviour'

Occam has no need for a saviour.
For he wishes not 'life after this life'

What he wants after this wonderfull experience of mortal life.
Is oblivion. Non existance.

But, occam fears, christianity will have none of that.
You are rewarded by being faithfull, or punnished by not being so.
There can be no third option for us who wish we never heard
'the word'
---------------
An Inuit hunter asked the local missionary priest: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?" "No," said the priest, "not if you did not know." "Then why," asked the Inuit earnestly, "did you tell me?" --Annie Dillard

God so loved the world that he made up his mind to damn a large majority of the human race. - Robert G. Ingersoll

The fear of hell is the basis for the Christian faith.--Madalyn Murray O'Hare

As a tot I was given the usual terrifying mixed message: a) God is love; and
b) If you don't believe how much he loves you, you will stand in the corner for eternity.- James Lileks

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. --Voltaire

Love is not hatred or wrath, consigning billions of people to eternal torture because they have offended your ego or disobeyed your rules. Love is not obedience, conformity, or submission. It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority, punishment or reward.
True love is respect and admiration, compassion and kindness, freely given by a healthy, unafraid human being. - Dan Barker
---------------

Occam asked his sister. 'Will a good man who does not desire 'salvation'
or eternal life. Go to hell?'
'Yes', she said.
Why? 'No eternal life is wanted, occam just wants to 'go away forever''
'No' she said, 'you dont get off that easy.'
'Get off from what?' occam asked
'From um...um................[she leaves the room]
Obviously this is he extent of thought about an absurdity
so ingrained it is believed implicitly, after all the stupid must have some way of feeling superior..

Occam

 

I love those first two quotes

but yours not so much :tongue:

 

Good ones, Occam.

 

Still wrapped up in the idea that Hell is eternal *torture*, eh?

Have you figured out how to answer the objection that Hell is neither torture nor annihilation yet?

 

But occam a guilty conscience demands a saviour - therein lies the core of christianity


Hotwater

 

Maurice S. Rawlings, a cardiologist at the Diagnostic Center in Chattanooga, Tennesssee, came to faith in Christ as a result of an experience with a dying patient who kept screaming, "I am in hell!" Rawlings wrote:

The patient began "coming to." But whenever I would reach for instruments or otherwise interrupt my compression of his chest, the patient would again lose conciousness, roll his eyes upward, arch his back in mild convulsion, stop breathing, and die once more.

Each time he regained heartbeat and respiration, the patient screamed, "I am in hell!" He was terrified and pleaded with me to help him. I was scared to death. In fact, the episode literally scared the hell out of me!

After several death episodes he finally asked me, "How do I stay out of hell?" I told him I guessed it was the same principle learned in Sunday school--that I guessed Jesus Christ would be the one whom you would ask to save you.

Then he said, "I don't know how. Pray for me."

Pray for him! What nerve! I told him I was a doctor, not a preacher.

"Pray for me!" he repeated.

So I had him repeat the words after me as we worked--right there on the floor. It was a very simple prayer because I did not know much about praying. It went something like this:

Lord Jesus, I ask you to keep me out of hell. Forgive my sins. I turn my life over to you. If I die, I want to go to heaven.

The patient's condition finally stabilized, and he was transported to the hospital. I went home, dusted off the Bible, and started reading it.

A few days later, Dr. Rawlings approached his patient with pad and pencil in hand for an interview. When he asked him about his experiences in hell, the patient did not recall these experiences, and could not remember being in hell. However, after he recovered, he became a strong Christian.

 

Campbell

No, ocam does not want to go to heaven.

Jesus would never send a soul to some absurdity called hell to be
tortured without chance of redemption.
'Punnishment' implies a time after punnishment where the lesson that
is learned can be applied.
But there is no 'after hell'.. thus it is not punnishment.. it is torture.

Occam

 

Soz.. but as the quote says.. the fear of hell is the core of christianity.

Occam

 

Alsharad

So it is NOT eternal torment?
Not having your soul ripped appart forever?

If you say it is not then you are speaking for a VERY small sect of the christian sect of the world monotheism.

And occam asks.. How would you know what the absurdity called hell is like if you have not been there or known any who has..?
THAT relegates your comments to the 'i believe it so it must be true'
bin right off.

Occam

 

And that is why the Bible tells us, NOW is the appointed time. Now is the day of salvation. Hell was created for the Devil and his angles, if you want to be a part of his rebellion, just ignore Jesus Christ. Back in 1973 I had an encounter with two demons, and I can assure you, they knew of Hell and spoke of it, and feared it. If you want to play games with your soul, that is your choice.

 

Forget about whether our souls enjoy a life after death, the rules like those of Christianity if actually respected and kept are Man's savior. To not do so, is the death of us all. Most notably, Jesus, tried to show us how important this is. So he is a savior for many. Me, I have lots of people in mind whom I consider saviour type material. They are not necessarily Christain. Christianity is certainly nothing to mock, though.

 

Eternal torment? Yes. But I understand that torment can be more varied in its expressions and, more importantly, it can be self-inflicted. Hell isn't a place where someone does stuff to you. The biblical descriptions create a picture that is more like someone who wails out of sorrow and self-pity.

Having your soul ripped apart? No. It's more akin to the anguish of the parent that accidentally kills their own child. You did it to yourself and there is no one else you can blame. The anguish of loss, self-loathing, and helplessness of being unable to escape create a far more terrifying hell (and a far more realistic one) than mere physical pain.

You are probably correct, however, it doesn't address the issue that your objection doesn't hold water against some "flavors" of Christianity.

Well, even if I did know someone that had, you would probably dismiss it. However, I can use accepted textual methods to determine the meaning of statements made by Christ. If He was who He said He was, then He *is* the authority.

I can also use logic. Think of it this way:

If God exists (having a distinct personhood), then He is either just or unjust.
If God is unjust, then He is not worthy of worship as rewards and punishments are meted out arbitrarily, regardless of how much we actually deserve either.

However:
If God is just, then those that are worthy of punishment must be punished in a manner and degree that is fitting of the offense.

So, either God is arbitrary or some people must be punished in a manner and degree that fits the offense (i.e. some sort of "Hell" *must* exist).

It is for this reason that I don't cling to the "literalist" picture of physical torment, but to a picture of hell that is far more profound, understandable, and terrifying.

 

i was raised a christian child , and my family was just so very kind . they say to me jesus loves the little children all the children of the world , and this is the message i've embraced to heart .


one evening , when a young man of 24 , my grandmother invites me to a party at her house . all her and grandpa's old friends from the church are there . i might still wonder that i was invited to be with these elder of elders , and that one by one they would approach me that night and give me a blessing .

i do not , never have , felt the need for salvation . those baptist farm people never put the devil nor hell in my mind . they give me hope and faith and love and endurance . life forever is eternal life is strength and endurance , so please love the children
.

 

If those Baptist farm people never told you about the need for salvation then they were not very good Baptist. Because telling people about salvation is the reason churches exist. I don't care how kind they were to you. Salvation is why Christ died on the cross. If they didn't tell you that, then they were only playing church. That's the problem with so many churches today, they are far more social that Godly. I left a church years ago because of that same reason.

 

Cheers to this great group of people you are with.
It reminds me of so many of the Lutherans I have grown up with.
Wonderful.

 

.
it seemed important to my christian church family that i be blessedly free . most kids i grew up with among them joined the church and are now the elders . myself , i ne'r thought much about getting baptized . i have gone on a journey , and whenever i see them again there abides a love . i share with them what i've learned . in a very practical way i am a simple prophet that they have made .

all's well .

we do not discuss salvation , even as surely and earnestly they believe in it .

as the christian experience is family , god talking in the world is something more . all of life speaks .

wQ ( woo )
.

 

Alsharad

And thats EXACTLY how the world appears to work.

There is no intervention.. But that does not mean there is no god.
You want a father close to you.
Occam postulates an engineer who cares little for details of process.

Occam

 

Dan

Occam does not mock christianity..
he mocks those that believe hell is a real thing.
The very concept is counter to all that jesus taught.

and none here can deny it.

You either turn the other cheek, or you do not.
You either live with dignity
or do not.
Hell is the postmortem 'revenge clique'
'God will get them....' sorry god will not.
WE make human evil. Through laziness and ignorance.

Occam

 

Tikoo

Life forever is the closest thing to hell occam can think of.
To NOT be able to end.
Yes, existance is a fantastic gift.
But to never be able to end it at ones choice is a horror.

Occam

 

Dan

We all die, there is no option.

Occam