My theory of the universe

Discussion in 'Agnosticism and Atheism' started by guybob1000, Feb 1, 2009.

  1. guybob1000

    guybob1000 Member

    Today my mind was drifting and I began to think of time and predetermined destiny.

    What I began to think of is this. Lets say you have are graphing and the 2 lines you are graphing are y=x+b and y=-x+2. Even without graping them you can figure out that they cross at (1,1)

    So my thinking is that, since the universe is ruled by a set of absolute rules, everything that has and will happen is the only way it could have happened.
    Lets say the Big Bang happened again and every atom was in the same exact place, since nothing is random and everything is guided by a set of rules the universe would come into being exactly the same as it did the first time.

    This would mean that earth would still appear and humans would evolve and you would still wake up in the same exact bed.

    Also, this means that everything that will happen, is set in stone, and if we only knew the precise rules that guide the universe we could extrapolate them and end up with the knowledge of what will happen tomorrow or in 1000 years.

    Of course such an undertaking is impossible since it is impossible to account for all variables and even to know the laws the shape our universe.

    Im open to critisism and im willing to accept that im wrong.
    What do you think?
  2. RandomOne

    RandomOne Member

    Interesting idea, except the universe is way more complicated then a set of 2 lines. There are set rules for the ways inanimate objects behave, you can use calculus to predict when a ball will start falling when you throw it up in the air and trig to predict where it will land but there are still other factors like wind, and then chaos theory. It will not always land in the same place even if all those conditions are the same because at the subatomic level everything is constantly changing.

    But when you introduce intelligence and free will in the mix you can't predict anything, you have 6 billion humans making choices and throwing balls all over the place whenever they want to. When an intelligent being is throwing the ball and not some machine, you can't even predict when each ball will be thrown let alone the direction or landing site.

    Unless your theory is that all of that is planned out, the decisions we make are premade for us and we can't change them. That's a dangerous idea though because then criminals can get away with murder "i was meant to kill him" so we have to accept it.

    Lastly why would we be given free will and intelligence if we are not meant to make our own choices? If we are preprogrammed what is our reason for existing at all.
  3. Given free will?

    By whom?
  4. RandomOne

    RandomOne Member

    I have no idea. But we have it.
  5. yes we do, but I don't consider it a gift.. something given.

    It's just used too often , that God gave it to us.

    I consider it part of our evolution
  6. guybob1000

    guybob1000 Member

    What i am saying is that everything is affected by everything else in the universe. So that if you randomly thought "I would like some cheese" that was not a random thought, rather it is a thought influenced by the universe as a whole.

    As far as fate, i dont believe this is fate. You still have free will in that you can do whatever you want to do or think what you want to think, however there is only one path for everyone to go down.
  7. Hoatzin

    Hoatzin Senior Member

    I did extensive Science, and it turns out the universe is actually just some big fat kid's imagination. 'Splains a lot, dunnit.
  8. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

    I don't claim to understand quantum mechanics, but from what I know of it, there is no predictabiliy at all at the sub-atomic level. Yet QM can be used to make damn accurate predictions. I don't think it's been settled by any means that everything is determined.
  9. guybob1000

    guybob1000 Member

    Even sub-atomic must follow some general rules. They cant just randomly do things can they?
  10. Hoatzin

    Hoatzin Senior Member

    I believe so; certainly big-S Science would suggest that, if something seems random, we just don't understand how it works yet.
  11. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

    Yes they apparently can! This was precisely the question that led Einstein to make his famous statement that God doesn't play dice with the universe. But prevailing scientific opinion is that He does just that at the quantum level, and the regularities elsewhere are statistical.
  12. RandomOne

    RandomOne Member

    Exactly, like you roll two dice and the odds are best for the number 7. You roll millions of dice and the odds are gonna be pretty darn consistent for a given range of numbers.

    Subatomic physics is weird.
  13. famewalk

    famewalk Banned

    Or was the mistake correctable for we had no goal for the future outcome of measuring our life in the midst of determined certainty, and thereby had not to continue regarding it such a mistake

    But if we have the goal for the understanding, is it the Goal Itself to understand? We know only to explain the quantity for no goal: that is, the Fact had no Act. :)
  14. No, the world is neither ordered nor is it in chaos. My mind also drifted off today, and I thought about how language relates to the world and that it is through language, the conceptualization of intuitions or those things which we see, the words we use to relate things together, and other things that projects order into the world. I think language is what allows itself for a self-examination which comes up with logic, which guards the relations between the external world and the language that we use to represent it. The relations we make between conceptualized ideas and external things in our language is what allows us to come up with some form of order.

    So order is only something emergent of our minds when it is paired with the access to the external world and has the ability of conceptualization and representation. In this way, chaos is nothing but an absence of understanding or some form of categorization/relations, while order is its presence.

    Thus, I also think that in the external world, as there is no order or chaos, there is neither predestination/fate/destiny and/or free will or randomness.

    I think predestination, predetermination, determinism, is mental organization of experience. Free will is but the concept of choice, an independence of a fixed future in the context of the human beings behaviors. And I would say both determinism and free will are compatible, though they seem incompatible; the reason that I think they are both valid is because both concepts play a certain role in the external world we take part of. They are both, if not fully, partially true because neither of them contradict the external world; they both have a sufficing explanation that accounts for different aspects of how things can be organized to work as when speaking of the external world.
  15. jumbuli55

    jumbuli55 Member

    Idea of eternal return is not a new one.
    Neitzsche wrote quite a lot , one of his central ideas being this idea of eternal return.

    It was later proven to be impossible (F.N. didn't know that matter had both wave and particle manifestations and that number of possible combinations equals nothing less of infinity).
  16. relaxxx

    relaxxx Senior Member

    Impossible even for a God. If God had the power to predetermine destiny or change it he'd need true omnipotence, in a split second he'd need to know the exact position of every atom in the universe, even the direction and phase angle of every electron inside every atom. If there is a God he clearly does not have this capability, it gets worse than that, if you believe popular religion there's a devil going around undermining all of his limited work.

    Isn't it bone chilling to think of the millions of religious people who have surrendered to "Gods will" because of this false assumption that he has control? It's the cancer of humanity.
  17. plebe

    plebe Member

    Actually, "the cancer of humanity" is your way of thinking. Until we recognize our commonality and cooperate on that basis, we will continue to struggle and suffer. There is plenty of evidence that our soul continues to exist after our material body dies from many different sources. There is plenty of evidence for a Creator. There is plenty of evidence that the material world that we interact with every day is an illusion, things are not what they seem to be. Anybody with even a rudimentary knowledge of Quantum Physics can see that. You need to look at the evidence with an open mind if you are to free yourself from your ignorant belief system. Surrendering yourself to God's will is the only way to be free of the illusion. Since I am deluded just like you, I have to rely on what I am told by those who can see clearly and who have no reason to lie about it.

    Scientism, the belief in science as the absolute arbiter of what is real, is just wrong. We have a spiritual body as well as a material body. It only takes a small amount of the proper type of introspection to discover that for our self. It behooves us to examine our true self. Please don't take my word for it. Examine all the evidence for yourself. It is freely available and extensive. But don't make the mistake of dismissing God's existence due to the confusing nature of the world's religions and the misguided people that adhere to them and misinterpret their fundamental teachings. I'd be happy to point you in the right direction.
  18. relaxxx

    relaxxx Senior Member

    That direction your pointing to is called denial!
  19. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

    Okay, o wise one. Who are these seers "who can see clearly and who have no reason to lie about it"? Where do we send our money?
  20. plebe

    plebe Member

    Those who know have no need for money. In fact, most of them have already left this world. Study the teachings of J. Krishnamurti, Gurdjieff, Ramana Maharshi, and other enlightened souls. If you don't believe what they tell you, then read what the scientists have to teach us. Here's a link to a synopsis of what has been discovered by those who looked: I've been studying this issue daily for the past 8 months. I am not wise. I am just as ignorant as anyone else. However, my own personal introspection has shown that there is something being revealed to me that was unknown to me a year ago. Until you look yourself, how will you know?

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