Muslims... Come Join this thread!

Discussion in 'Islam' started by Brocktoon, May 15, 2004.

  1. Brocktoon

    Brocktoon Banned

    I was saddened to see that the Islam section was the only section never used in the entire forums!?

    Surely there must be a handful of people interested in posting a few words about this respectable world religion?

    I thought if I started things off with a thread it might encourage someone to speak about Islam.

    Are there any Muslim forum members at all?
    Muko44 likes this.
  2. fallenangel

    fallenangel Member

    I'm not muslim, but i recently met a muslim who has made me very curious about it. I'm not sure what i believe in, all i know i what i was told to all my life.
    Muko44 likes this.
  3. Antimatter235

    Antimatter235 Member

    It's not a respectable religion.
  4. jonny2mad

    jonny2mad Senior Member

    we used to have some muslim posters and this forum was at one time quite busy
    they did with the best will in the world have a hard time in showing that is was a respectable religion but thats only my opinion

    that doesnt mean that muslims are all monsters just that the founder and some of the tenets of the religion are pretty nasty and differcult to defend by logic

    I hope all our muslim and ex-muslim posters are well and will reregister

    some ex-muslim atheist and humanist sites ali sina site ibn warraqs site

    these sites if you read them carefully have a lot of question to ask muslims about whether mohammed was a moral man and likely to be a prophet , whether a islamic state is the best form of goverment and lots more
  5. Brocktoon

    Brocktoon Banned

    Personaly, Intellectualy - I dont believe that Mohammed was a true prophet or that the Koran is inspired by God... but... I insist and hope every Muslim has the right and privilage to to come here and tell me otherwise.

    It may very well help me to understand why and what I believe to be true as well!

    I had a dear Muslim friend who had moved (escaped) to the US from Iran and he had nothing good to say about the 'Jihadist' Muslims running the show over there.
    The man was almost 'Saint-like' in his demeanor and personality.
    I could be wrong but I think he was a 'Whahabi' (??)
    The 'Mellow' sect of Islam anyway.

    Yes I agree with you Johnny2man that Mohammed himself was a violent and hostile warrior.
    I suspect many Muslims will disagree!!
  6. cabdirazzaq

    cabdirazzaq Member

    Well I´m a muslim and would be glad to answer any question you may have or to defend my religion from every statement from johnny here.

    62:1. Whatever is in the heavens and on earth, doth declare the Praises and Glory of Allah,- the Sovereign, the Holy One, the Exalted in Might, the Wise.
    Muko44 likes this.
  7. Brocktoon

    Brocktoon Banned

    Im glad to see you are here Cabdirazz!

    I wonder if you have any thoughts regarding the recent Nick Berg killing and how a Muslim can explain the actions of those murderers.

    They claimed that Islam justified the killing?
  8. cabdirazzaq

    cabdirazzaq Member

    2:256. Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.
  9. fallenangel

    fallenangel Member

    I have so many questions, I dont know where to begin. I would be interested in anything u willing to share with me. I never knew any muslim ppl b/f i met my friend. It has opened my eyes about my own, not to mention other ppl's ignorance toward muslim ppl & their beliefs.
    1 person likes this.
  10. cabdirazzaq

    cabdirazzaq Member

    The most important thing and the largest matter which is described in Quran is the belief in 1 God and that he has no partner/son or any of the like.

    40:65. He is the Living (One): There is no god but He: Call upon Him, giving Him sincere devotion. Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds!

    Then following that comes some duties which a muslim is obligated to perform such as prayer, giving alms, fasting, and the pilgrammage. These 5 are called the pillars of islam but ofcourse islam is much wider then just these five. Note that prayer is something extremly important for a muslim, when one stands infront of his lord, speaking with him with his words(meaning reading quran) and praising him- indeed I do not find a greator joy than that or anything more relaxing. Sometimes you have had one of those days when nothing seems to go your way and you feel empty for some reason merly the thought of prayer makes the emptyness go away and the feeling of peace flow through one self.
    31:1 A. L. M.
    31:2 These are Verses of the Wise Book,-
    31:3 A Guide and a Mercy to the Doers of Good,-
    31:4 Those who establish regular Prayer, and give regular Charity, and have (in their hearts) the assurance of the Hereafter.

    Il be happy to try to answer any question you may have and my advice to you or anyone who wants to know anything about islam is to read the Quran which will seperate the lies from truth. And it should also be noted that the quran is in arabic and the english translation is a "tafsir" which explains the quran but is not the quran. The quran is to be recited in arabic, in the language which it was revealed in. A full list of all the chapters of quran in arabic can be found here(recited by Sh. Abdurahman Sodais) and here(recited by Sh. Mishary Rashid Al-Efasi) The first chapters are quite long while the last are a little bit smaller and speak not as much about different laws and rules as the 5 beginning chapters do.
  11. gnrm23

    gnrm23 Senior Member

    there is a sect within islam (considered "fringy" or even heterodox by some muslims) with a universalist stance called sufi (or tasawuf) with many different orders...

    there numbers are not great but their influence throughout the centuries has been enormous...

    do a gooleserach or start here (this group is based on chisti murshid hazrat inayat khan's teachings) --- other orders include mevlavis, sarmounis, dervishes of various types...

    idries shah has written several books about sufis & sufi teaching stories, including tales of mullah nasruddin...
  12. jonny2mad

    jonny2mad Senior Member

    mohammed beheaded prisoners several hundred at a time

    khalid bin walid the sword of allah made a river run red for 3 days in iran beheading prisoners
    if the main person in a religion the person as a muslim you should try to be like chopped prisoners heads off wouldnt that influence religous people to follow his example
    one example of mohammed behavior

    Al Mughni' that: "Each prisoner has his own qualities that should determine his fate; if the prisoner is of exceptional harm to the believers, then killing him is the best course of action. If the prisoner is weak and wealthy, ransoming him is best. If the prisoner is wise and looks highly upon the Muslims, then seeking his conversion by releasing him without conditions, or exchanging him for Muslim prisoners, is best. If the prisoners may be of service to the Muslims, including young prisoners and female prisoners, then keeping them in bondage is best. The Muslim leader will know what is in the interest of the Muslims when it comes to deciding the fate of prisoners, he should thus be counselled on such matters and is the final authority in making the decision."

    I found this nice qoutation from a chechen site here the site
  13. Brocktoon

    Brocktoon Banned

    Now here is my concern Johnny2mad...

    Yes, clearly the Koran is stating that (for example) Muslims should Kill Pagans whereever they find them...


    Now, IS this a verse with a context?
    Is Mohammed refering to those particular followers at that particular time in a specific series of battles against Pagan forces?

    What is the context of these instructions to kill non-muslims?

    This is a very important distinction because without context it appears as if Mohammed (Allah) is clearly instructing Muslims to violently take over the world.
    IF the context is within a historical event or asking them 'in the case of being attacked..' well then that is a different story!
  14. jonny2mad

    jonny2mad Senior Member

    you have a principle called abrogation which means that lets say on monday mohammed said its ok to eat fish and on sunday he said dont eat fish stone fish eaters

    you follow the last one the one on sunday

    now if mohammed had been more chilled out on sunday this would be fine but he wasnt

    generally what happened is the early bits of the koran come from a period when he didnt have a big army behind him so they speak of peace the later passages are the nasty ones the ones that tell you to kill and enslave people these are the ones in force today

    so if you hear a muslim saying for example it says in the koran "To you is your religion, to me is mine'...109:1- 6 it sounds very reasonable but these verses are abrogated and do not in any way apply

    its a ruse that muslims often use
    what you have to look at is when a specific verse was given

    very good article on abrogation the first ones better but both cover the same area
  15. Brocktoon

    Brocktoon Banned


    The reason Im concerned is because an old trick of Christianity's critics is to go back to the Old Testament, find events where the Israelites were carrying out judgement on other tribes - then they love to 'cut'n'paste' Gods instructions to that specific tribe on that specific occasion, so as to make it appear this is what 'The Bible' teaches.

    Well.. if you just opened a page and there it said "Kill them and burn their villages" without any context then you can easily argue that the God of the Jews wants all non-Jews killed all the time!

    Context shows this is simply not the case and those particular instructions have nothing to do with anyone except those specific incidents!

    Now.. I have seen people cut out a Mohammed instruction "Kill all the Pagans where-ever you find them"

    Ok... is this a mandate to all Muslims for all times?
    - or -
    was this refering to one particular battle?

    This is a very signifigant difference if it exists?
  16. brothwood

    brothwood Member

    This may be completely fake, but i doscovered whilst reading a book in Religious Studies that Islam believes that God created the 1st human (just one man!) from clay, I just wondered what your response to this would be?
  17. cabdirazzaq

    cabdirazzaq Member

    This is completly correct and is reapeated several times in the quran such as:
    35:11 And Allah did create you from dust; then from a sperm-drop; then He made you in pairs.

    30:20 Among His Signs in this, that He created you from dust; and then,- behold, ye are men scattered (far and wide)!

    There are lots of other verses that speak about this and frankly I don´t see the strange thing about it. You were created from sperm but that doesn´t mean your all wet and sticky and you were created from congealed blood but it doesn´t mean you have the features of blood. Adam(peace be upon him) was created from dust and then Ibliis(Lucifer)[satan] and all the angels were orded to prostate to Adam(peace be upon him) who had been created by Allah(may he be exalted) and he[ibliis] refused on the grounds of arrogance. He was created by fire while Adam(peace be upon him) was created from dust.

    38.71 Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I am about to create man from clay:
    38.72 "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."

    38.73 So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together:
    38.74 Not so Iblis: he was haughty, and became one of those who reject Faith.
    38.75 (Allah) said: "O Iblis! What prevents thee from prostrating thyself to one whom I have created with my hands? Art thou haughty? Or art thou one of the high (and mighty) ones?"
    38.76 (Iblis) said: "I am better than he: thou createdst me from fire, and him thou createdst from clay."
    38.77 (Allah) said: "Then get thee out from here: for thou art rejected, accursed.
    38.78 "And My curse shall be on thee till the Day of Judgment."
  18. Brocktoon

    Brocktoon Banned

    I thought it would be interesting to mention that the book of Genesis describes Adam as having been created from dust...

    And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    The Judeo-Christian accounts are different from the Koran but they do agree on that particular detail.

    Many Hebrew scholars point out that the name 'Adam' has a meaning like 'Red Earth'. Maybe a way of describing from the earth he was made of?

    Another similar belief is found in the modern creation stories in which man is said to have been created from some chemicals or 'slime' floating in the ocean.
    The major difference being that the Koran and Bible say it was a deliberate creation and not an accident.

    Good thread guys!
  19. jonny2mad

    jonny2mad Senior Member

    sorry have taken a while getting back to this thread

    from my understanding of islamic scripture its not the jihadists that misinterpret scripture but the large number of nice muslims who behave in a civilised way in spite of islamic scripture

    I put this down to natural goodness and humanity amongst these people

    the koran says its made easy to understand for believers

    the last messages of mohammed are things like kill pagans wherever you find them make people pay protection money and become second class citizens fight jihad dont take christians or jews as friends ect ect ect

    in a islamic state non christians and jews dont get dhimmini status so they either get made into slaves or killed

    the problem we get is when people start trying to apply the teaching of the qoran thats why we call these people fundermentalists.

    they arnt people going off on their own track doing what they please they are trying to apply a religion that was based on military conquest

    you could put a good case for christianity being misinterpreted too

    because the later bits the new testament and jesus is quite non violent

    turn the other cheek love your neighbour as yourself these havnt been applied much either

    Im not a christian so Im not going to make that case but its interesting to see that the majority of people in both religions seem to follow what they feel like to an extent

    2:216) “Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you.”

    (9:29) “Make war upon …the Jews and Christians …who profess not the Religion of Truth, until they pay Jizya and be humbled.”

    (9:33) Allah hath sent the religion of truth that it may prevail over all religions.”

    (5:51) “O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. .

    article on muslims
    . "
  20. cabdirazzaq

    cabdirazzaq Member

    Undoubtly jihad makes up a big part of this religion, it could be of different types such as to strive with ones hands or with ones heart. As soon as the muslims stopped fighting and they stopped fearing their creator and started fearing the enemy they became humilated, slaughtered and oppressed. It´s no secret today what happens in Cheychnia, Kashmir, Iraq and Palestine. Fighting is prescribed on us just as the former generation had to fight.

    2.251: By Allah's will they routed them; and David slew Goliath; and Allah gave him power and wisdom and taught him whatever (else) He willed. And did not Allah Check one set of people by means of another, the earth would indeed be full of mischief: But Allah is full of bounty to all the worlds.

    If nobody ever fought indeed churches, monastaries, temples and mosques were Allahs(may he be exalted) name is mentioned would of been destroyed.

    Fighting as I said before is prescribed on us but many has started to dislike it and we now see muslims being oppressed and killed in many places of the world.

    Islam is the religion of truth and a light and guidance sent down by the lord of the worlds. Indeed it contains justice and laws for mankind. Allah(may he be exalted) says:
    Allah is the Protector of those who have faith: from the depths of darkness He will lead them forth into light. Of those who reject faith the patrons are the evil ones: from light they will lead them forth into the depths of darkness. They will be companions of the fire, to dwell therein (For ever).

    Just because we are not allowed to befriend disbelivers doesn´t mean we should treat them like dirt.

    60.8 Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just

    29.46 And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong

    5.82 Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

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