messianic jews

Are any of you guys messianic jews...i've been studying judaism alot lately and i love it but i think i still believe that jesus is the christ so i'm just wondering your guys oppions on the matter.

 

The Jewish population at large does not consider Messianic Jews as Jewish. They are funded by fundamentalist Christian organizations. Basically, it was an attempt at making Jesus more palatable to Jews because some Christians believe that 1 Jewish convert is worth 50 non-Jewish converts. They believe that all Jews must believe in Jesus before the second coming. And so they go to great lengths to missionize to the Jews. This is one such length.

As far as Jesus being "the christ," there are a number of very clear measures of whether the messiah has come, such as world peace. Without this, we know he hasn't come. Also, the emphasis in Judaism is not on the messiah but on the age that follows his coming. Jews would never even think of worshipping the real messiah. He'll just be a person like anyone else.

I hope this answers some of your questions.

Ben

Edit: Sorry if I sounded a little harsh. I was just trying to be to-the-point.

 

I, too, have studied Judaism alot, over a year or so.


Anyway, I was wondering what the difference between a "messianic jew" and a regular christian was? I don't see a huge difference, but I could be wrong.

 

The difference between a Messianic Jew and a Christian is that a Christian makes the task of converting Jews a part-time affair, while Messianic Jews make it their primary motivation. Jews for Jesus was the first Messianic Jewish organization, and they were founded specifically with the intention of converting Jews. Since then, many break-off groups have been founded, and have tried to hide the fact that their primary goal is to convert Jews... All the same...

I can't even express to you how important it is to check out www.jewsforjudaism.org. It's the website of the organization Jews for Judaism, a counter-missionary/counter-cult organization founded as a response to Jews for Jesus. I know some of the folks who work for Jews for Judaism, and they do a thankless job with little funding, and help prevent many Jews from being taken by these missionary/cult organizations.

To quote from one of their brochures:

"Jews for Jesus is one of hundreds of evangelical Christian missionary organizations that spend millions of dollars each year to convert Jews. Despite any trappings of Jewish tradition utilized to mislead and entice... Their theology is 100% Christian. In fact, many of their leaders aren't Jewish. Both Jewish and Christian groups have denounced their tactics. In the event that you are confused or confronted by these missionaries, the following Q&A is provided to help you and your children."

To read the rest, see the brochure in PDF format at http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/brochures/7AnswerstoJewsforJesus.pdf

There is no question, and no doubt... Messianic Judaism is in no way, shape, or form a legitimate "Judaism." There are no legitimate Judaisms that would accept Messianic Judaism as such. It is entirely a Christian movement, founded by Christians, primarily run by Christians, that is built on lies and deception, and is tasked with converting as many Jews to a hidden form of Christianity as they can.

Whatever you do, stay away from these folks! They are bad news!!!

b'Shalom.

 

jews for jesus is like vegans for cheeseburgers

 

I must say, I've never heard it said better!

b'Shalom.

 

It seriously pisses me off that people want to trick people into joining their religion by disguising it as and thus mocking someone's else's religion.

 

I couldn't get past this CRAP before I had to post. This especially angers me: "Christians believe that 1 Jewish convert is worth 50 non-Jewish converts." Where in your sick perverted religion did you hear that one? True Christians know that jews are the children of Satan, as Jesus said:
JESUS CHRIST, speaking to the Jews in the Gospel of St. John, VIII:44
"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lust of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is not truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. - then answered the Jews - "

Your religion teaches that jews have two souls (the "Adam", or "man" soul and the "animal soul"), and Gentiles only one, and that the soul of the Gentile is the "animal soul" and unable to attain any importance in the eyes of God. Therefore when the Gentile dies, he ceases to exist. The Talmud is full of hate speech against anyone who is not jew, (aka Gentiles), against Jesus (he was a lier, a magician, and is burning - or boiling - in a sea of excrement!), the Virgin Mary (she was a harlot, a whore).

I caution any Gentile who is studying or is curious about judaism to do all you can to locate and read their Talmud before you belive the lies in the little books they allow you to read or "study", for the core of judaism is found there and not in pamplets.

States dreadyjew:"Whatever you do, stay away from these folks! They are bad news!!!"
Yes, stay away from these folks!!!!

 

I did not say Christians. I said some Christians. And if you did not know that then you are misinformed.This is the reason that Jews for Jesus exists. It is a fundamentalist Christian movement because some Christians believe that they must convert the Jews, and they specifically target Jews.

And then after that statement you just spout misinformed hate. Isn't that statement typical related to the Christian concept of Original Sin? Wasn't Jesus typically talking to Jews as he was a Jew in a Jewish society?

And everyone is b'nai adam, children of Adam, all of humanity. I have no idea where you got that last fact. On the contrary, Judaism does not condemn anybody. Jews just have many more laws to follow. Non-Jews potentially have 7. There is no such suggestion that a non-Jew ceases to exist. Rather, Judaism is concerned with Jews. It is a religion for Jews. And it speaks about what happens for them.

As far as what you may have read about the Talmud, this is an example of one misquote:

CLAIM (32a)
Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men.

RESPONSE
No such text exists in the standard Talmuds. There is reference to a certain Ben Stada who according to R. Eliezer brought knowledge of witchcraft out of Egypt by making marks on his body. The other sages dismissed Ben Stada as a fool. In some versions of the Talmud there is
statement to the effect that this person's mother (Miriam Magdala) was not faithful to her husband. Some commentators specifically point out for identification purposes that this person was executed in Lod and is not
identifiable with anyone mentioned in Christian traditions. The Talmud also notes that the name Miriam Magdala was a very common one.


http://groups.msn.com/Mishpocha/thetalmudpart3.msnw

This website most likely covers all of the slander you have ever heard.

I recommend before you begin slandering others, that you seriously investigate what they are saying, and not what others are saying about them.

--Ben

Edit: Even more poignant:

Gloats over Christ Dying Young A passage from Sanhedrin 106 gloats over the early age at which Jesus died: "Hast thou heard how old Balaam (Jesus) was?-He replied: It is not actually stated but since it is written, Bloody and deceitful men shall not live out half their days it follows that he was thirty-three or thirty-four years old."

RESPONSE (1)
Notice the "Jesus" in parentheses? The text does not say "Jesus". It says "Balaam". How to trump up a charge of blasphemy, in one easy lesson.


RESPONSE (2)
The Talmud states that the wicked Bilaam (Numbers 23:24) died after living only half his allotted time span, in accordance with the statement in Psalms 55:24, that the wicked do not survive half their allotted life span. The commentary of Rashi makes it clear that the reference is to the biblical Bilaam.

 

the dauer: Thank you for responding to me. However you gave me no more than I expected from a person who is trained to deceive the Gentiles. Firstly, you gave me a jewish site that I am sure is constucted to misinform; Secondly, you ignored the assertions of my post concerning the 50/1 ratio, and Jesus' statement that jews are the children of the devil.
Now, I did not come here to slander you, I came only to show that those who are seriously considering following the teachings of Judaism that they are headed down a path that is contridictory to God.
If the site you posted was not to misinform, then why weren't the pages of the Talmud scanned into the response instead of some vauge reply given as the answer?
How do you explain away this hatred:

"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online

Jewish plan for America
"We must realize that our party's most powerful weapon is racial tensions. By propounding into the consciousness of the dark races that for centuries they have been oppressed by whites, we can mold them to the program of the Communist Party. In America we will aim for subtle victory. While inflaming the Negro minority against the whites, we will endeavor to instill in the whites a guilt complex for their exploitation of the Negros. We will aid the Negroes to rise in prominence in every walk of life, in the professions and in the world of sports and entertainment. With this prestige, the Negro will be able to intermarry with the whites and begin a process which will deliver America to our cause."
Israel Cohen, A Racial Program for the Twentieth Century, 1912. Also in the Congressional Record, Vol. 103, p. 8559, June 7, 1957

"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.

"This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy."
-- Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971

"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
-- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.

"Jewish blood and a goy's [gentile's] blood are not the same."
Israeli Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg, Inferring that killing isn't murder if the
victim is Gentile. Jerusalem Post, June 19,1989.

"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
-- Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001, to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio.

One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." -- Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994 [Source: N.Y. Times, Feb. 28, 1994, p. 1]

Do you have a web site of deception for these things?

To you who are considering following the ways of the jews, I have these words for you:
Read 1st John 2: 22-23

22: Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23: Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

 

Hello warrior,

We, the Jewish people have survived for a few thousand years. We have suffered through numerous catastrophes, and our religion has survived with us.

We have survived and our religion has survived because our faith is built upon a rock solid foundation, a belief in one and only one God.

It is almost understandable why people like you attack us and our religion. Your stated belief is in a religion assembled on a wobbly foundation with styrofoam bricks from other mythological sources Multiple gods, virgin births, man-gods, return from death, all the things your mind tells you are illogical and false.

In your confused and desparate state, you attempt to use your false religion, (Do unto others...., Love thy neighbor...., Turn the other cheek...., and so on) to condone the ridicule, torture and murder of others who do not wish to believe as you.

Time continues forward, and we wait for the coming of the HUMAN BEING, the massiah, when things will be put into their proper place, for ALL people.

Your false religion will pass just as the others have passed, to be looked back on as just another myth.

 

Shalom in the name of Hashem blessed is His name!

When it comes to getting a firm and clear representation of Judaism it all comes back to one place, the Torah. The Torah is what G-d gave mankind as the measuring stick for all of life and every situation. If someone proclaims something and it is not supported by the Torah then it is in error. It does not seem to be intellectually honest to quote political leaders in an effort to make a true representation of Judaism. We must look to the Torah and the complete Tanach if we are to measure Judaism. Yes it is sad to see some radicals say things that go directly against the Torah but every religion has it’s wayward followers from time to time. But the Torah is eternal and everlasting and the proclamations of a few will never change it.





If you would like to learn what Judaism is and what it entails a very good site is http://www.jewfaq.org/. BTW- just so no one is mislead, I am not Jewish or xtian.

Shalom and may He bless you greatly!

 

I could not find the quote about the 1/50, but I did find something else and I will quote it for you.

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/handbook/s_obsession.html

It quotes NT for you. By the way, Jesus was a Jew. If something is said about the Jews, should he not be included?

As far as those quotes you gave, they may or may not be true. But they represent the extremist thoughts of individuals and do not represent the beliefs maintained by mainstream Judaism. Do you happily maintain as right conduct and word the Inquisition and the Crusades and the Blood Libels and the antisemitic writings of Martin Luther?

"We are at fault in not slaying them."

Martin Luther, speaking on the Christian need to murder other people to avenge Jesus and what he claimed as Christians killed at the hands of the Jews hundred and hundreds of years ago.

Ben

 

-Do you believe as the Bible teaches that the Jewish people poluted God's name where ever they wondered on the earth and continue to do so today?

I had concern for my holy name, which the house of Israel profaned among the nations where they had gone.

"Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone.-Ezekiel 36:21-22

Also, If this is God's opinion of Jewish spirituality why would anybody look to the Jewish people for Biblical truth?

 

I will attempt to respond to all of your posts later as I am pressed for time tonight. However, I do want to respond to two of your slanders right away.
1). That Jesus was a jew. Jesus was an Isrealite. Jews ariginated out of Edom and were a mixed race of people. Isrealites are of one nation (race).
2). The jews are not even mentioned in the Torah - the first five books of the Bible.
3). " We, the Jewish people have survived for a few thousand years. We have suffered through numerous catastrophes, and our religion has survived with us."
This is typical jewish "feel sorry for us rhetoric". No sympathy here. BTW, why wont you mention all of the catastrophes that your religion has perpatrated upon the entire world - such as the mass killings in Palestine that is being carried out daily by jews?
4). "It is almost understandable why people like you attack us and our religion. Your stated belief is in a religion assembled on a wobbly foundation with styrofoam bricks from other mythological sources Multiple gods, virgin births, man-gods, return from death, all the things your mind tells you are illogical and false."
My religion is based on a very solid foundation - that of the entire Bible and the words of God and Jesus. There is no paganism in Christianity as you claim. I know that I am dealing with masters of deceit, and you will try to use this deceit to defeat me. But I will argue against your lies and show them to be such. Pull your panties up girls, you're in for a ride.

 

Please disregard my above post. I had no idea of the level of hatred I was dealing with. I bid you peace and blessings no matter what.

Shalom

 

You have skipped over some important information. Your quote begins therefore. It left me wondering what came before it. Why is this to be said to the house of Israel?

First it is important to mention, God is very upset. There has been idol worship and the people had shed much blood.
...
I scattered them among the nations and they were dispersed through the countries: I punished them in accordance with their ways and deeds. But when they came to those nations, they caused My holy name to be profaned, in that it was said of them, "These are the people of the LORD, yet they had to leave his land." Therefore I am concerned with My holy name, which the house of Israel have caused to be profaned among the nations to which they have come.
Say to the house of Israel: Thus said the Lord GOD: Not for your sake will I act, O House of Israel, but for My holy name, which you have caused to be profaned among the nations to which you have come.

Ezekiel 36:19 - 22

Now, piece by piece.

--I scattered them among the nations and they were dispersed through the countries: I punished them in accordance with their ways and deeds.

They were scattered among the nations. This is their punishment for idolatry and bloodshed.

--But when they came to those nations, they caused My holy name to be profaned, in that it was said of them, "These are the people of the LORD, yet they had to leave his land." Therefore I am concerned with My holy name, which the house of Israel have caused to be profaned among the nations to which they have come.--

GodÕs holy name was profaned because the other nations saw GodÕs people scattered. They would say to themselves, ÒThey claim to be GodÕs people and yet they are scattered. Some God.Ó ItÕs hurting His rep and He wants to repair the damage done. Israel profaned GodÕs name indirectly, by being seen scattered by the other nations. It was not because they were acting poorly. That was dealt with in the last part.

--Say to the house of Israel: Thus said the Lord GOD: Not for your sake will I act, O House of Israel, but for My holy name, which you have caused to be profaned among the nations to which you have come.--

God tells Ezekiel to tell Israel that His actions will be for His name, and not for them. What will these actions be? Beginning in line 23 it describes quite poetically that the nations will see GodÕs holiness through Israel when they are raised to a new spiritual level and follow ALL of the laws and rules. Then theyÕll live in Israel as things were before. And there will be full harvests. And all of Israel will be repaired. And the people will fill the land.

So why is this important? Because God makes the point that he does all of these acts for His name and not for Israel. ÒDonÕt get full of yourselves. It is not for you that I do this. It could have been another nation. But you chose me.Ó And GodÕs name will at that time be given the respect it deserves because the people will have seen the work of His hand. And they will realize that just because His people were scattered, He did not forget them. But it is God and not the people who will take credit for this.

ItÕs like Moses hitting the rock. He does it in anger and makes it seem like he gets the water. God gets no credit. But it was God who made water spring forth from the rock. For this Moses doesnÕt enter the land. And thatÕs what this prophesy was leading up to. Now I will summarize

God scattered Israel as punishment for idolatry and bloodshed. After they were scattered the other nations thought less of God. His name was profaned by the status of His nation of priests being scattered. God wants Israel to know that when He acts it is for Him and not them, so they shouldnÕt develop an ego. Someday God will gather all of Israel back to the land and they will follow all of his laws and the land will be bountiful. But this will be GodÕs doing for GodÕs name. But he will also do for IsraelÕs sake and multiply the people like sheep.

Now you may ask, if the punishment for idolatry was already handed out,, why does God need to cleanse Israel of their fetishes before they enter the land? People are not perfect. That is not our job in life. WeÕre human. God made us as we are. Our job is to strive to do good, and when we do wrong it is our job to make good on what we have done. So on that day it will be expected that some of the Jews will have adopted the fetishes of other people. But at that time they will abandon them.

 

1. Jew comes from the hebrew Yehudi which means a resident of Yehuda/Judah/Judea or the Southern Kingdom of Israel. I am using a Christian lexicon, btw. Yehudi occurs at Zc 8:23, Je 43:9, Est 2:5, Je 34:9, Est 3:4, Est 5:13, 6:10, 8:7, 9:29.31, 10:5, I Ch 4:18, Je 52:28.30, 2 K 16:6, 25:25, Je 32:12, 38:19, 40:11.12, 41:3, 44:1, Ne 1:2, 2:16, 3:33.34, 4:6, 5:1.8.17, 6:6, 13:23, Est 3:6.10.13, 4:3.13.14.16, 6:13, 8:3.5.8.9.9.11.16.17.17, 9:1.1.2.3.5.6.10.12.13.16.19.20.22.23.24.24.25.27.28.30

After Israel split the Northern Kingdom was lost. This is why there are sometimes references in various literature to the lost tribes. Nobody's sure exactly what happened to them. Afterwards all that was left was the Southern Kingdom of Judah, which was made up in large part by the tribe of Judah. After the Babylonian Exile the land was called Judea. A Jew is a person who claims descendance from the people of Judea. This includes converts. Converts often accept the hebrew name <insert name> ben Avraham v'Sarah, or So-and-So Son of Abraham and Sarah. Jesus was most definitely a Jew as he was a resident of Judea. I'll raise the bar and say it's quite likely he was a pharisee and was really opposed to the Sadducees who had been corrupting temple practice and not the Pharisees who were trying to maintain the letter and spirit of the law. But by the time Christianity was becoming its own there were no Sadducees so it needed a new other by which to define itself in opposition.

The lexicon I use is "A Hebrew And English Lexicon of the Old Testament" by Francis Brown, S.R. Driver, and C.A.Briggs. It's based on the work of William Gesenius.

You also state that Israelites are of one race, yet when they left Egypt, were they not a mixed multitude? Nevermind that David came from Ruth, who was a convert. Or that Moses married a non-Jew. It's not an issue of race. Nation is better though. Still not perfect.

2. You are correct. They are not mentioned. But the tribe of Judah is. This is because Israel had not been divided at that time. When Israel split into the Northern and Southern Kingdoms, the Southern was Judah. How is any of that relevant? Would it make you feel better to know that we are also called B'nai Yisrael, the children of Israel?

3. There are no mass killings of Palestinians by Jews. On the contrary, Israel is working towards peace and defending itself from a terrorist threat, something the US has only recently gotten even a taste of. I have never heard of an Israeli cheering on the death of Palestinians or going out on crusades to murder them. I have heard of Israel considering what must be done to stop the violence, and I have heard of Israel investing a lot of money into riot control weapons and the like that will not do serious harm to the individual.

4. Show me where in TaNaKh it says that the messiah will be a GodMan. Show me where it says that he will not fulfill any of the prophesies that would be observable to the whole world. Show me where it says that he will come back from the dead. Show me where it says that we have to have faith in him in order to be saved because we all dirty, dirty people who can't relate to God in any way unless it's through a person who may or may not have existed. TaNaKh, by the way, is Torah. Nevi'im, and Ketuvim. Torah, Prophets, and Writings.

Ben

 

Warrior wrote:
"Pull up your panties girls, you're in for a ride"
Is this how Xtians talk to non-Xtians? Hardly complementary.

Warrior in a previous post said:
"However you gave me no more than I expected from a person who is trained to deceive the Gentiles. Firstly, you gave me a jewish site that I am sure is constucted to misinform; Secondly, you ignored the assertions of my post concerning the 50/1 ratio, and Jesus' statement that jews are the children of the devil."
Wow! Do you know what you just said? To better understand your inflammatory remarks what if you said that about a Black person? Someone (correctly) would assume you were racist.

As far as using the events in the middle East to camaflouge your hatred of Jews, its easy to selectively pick from a wide range of quotes from any Nation and mis-inform others through your slanted Jew bashing lense.

Warrior wrote:
"Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son."

I guess according to Warrior besides Jews, Muslims, Atheists, Buddists, and other religions are liars and the antichrist. Let me guess, it's you're duty not to respect other faiths and beliefs. Tell me, are you planning on starting up any pogroms, blood libel, and Talmud book burning in your neighborhood soon?

As far as I can see the only deception going on is your own attempts to invalidate Judaism.

 

Isn't this beautifull; Isn't this great? Once again my loving God responds to my prayers! Blessed be the God of the true Isrealites!

Do a check on my posts. Hee, hee, I am a racist! I freely admit that. Will any of you admit that you hate Jesus? Will you admit that you HATE Gentiles?

As I said before girls, pull your panties up, you are in for a ride. Daddy don't discrimate. Daddy IS an anti-semite. Throw all of your anti shit at me and I will admit to it. But what will YOU girls admit too? Nothing because you are deceivers. I am not. I recognize me. Admit your hate, cowards.

You say it is deception to attempt to " invalidate judaism". What is valid in judaism? If it is "valid" then why do you hide the Talmud from non-jews? Why, when I recently tried to purchase one ($1100.oo) why did I need my rabbi to purchase it for me? Because gentiles are not to know the word of it, for then they will know the hatred that is the jew and will destroy you for it.

I do not use the events of the middle east to camaflouge anything. I use that as an example of your self-rightous hatred against nonjews. Why do you MURDER Palestinians, who are powerless against you? Continue your deception and your lies; worship satan as your father, for truly he is. But remember, my God, will cleans His people and destroy you. Shit. You are not even worthy of being that.

Warrior wrote:
"Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son."

Yep, Warrior wrote that - A direct translation from the New Testament.

Do you, jew, "respect other faiths and beliefs."? Nope. So don't try this holier than me crap.