London murder rate rises higher than NY City

Discussion in 'Politics' started by 6-eyed shaman, Apr 1, 2018.

  1. GeorgeJetStoned

    GeorgeJetStoned Odd Member

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    Naaaa, a true liberal can handle a discussion or a debate no matter how many times you disagree with them. It takes a hard leftist child person to throw a fit and start calling you names when you disagree. Liberals seek enlightenment. Leftists seek only to force you to their version of enlightenment.
     
    6-eyed shaman and rollingalong like this.
  2. Noserider

    Noserider Goofy-Footed Member

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    Accurate distinction. And while I couldn't agree more, the term liberal has been hijacked by those who are anything but liberal. Much the same way the term conservative has as well.
     
  3. 6-eyed shaman

    6-eyed shaman Sock-eye salmon

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    Really? I counted only one.

    Some of the refugees (the legitimate ones) are already seeking to return home after the violence begins to calm. I see this as a good thing, as these ones wish to rebuild their own country. I understand what homesickness feels like.

    Do I think the globalists are authoritarian?

    Ummmm.... yeah!

    A foreign body governing over a sovereign state that did not elect this government is the epitome of authoritarianism. Global governance is a huge threat to all our personal freedoms.

    [​IMG]


    Do you actually think that fascism and authoritarianism is exclusively right wing?
    Authoritarianism is bad regardless whether or not it is done by a religious right wing state, or a collectivist socialist left wing state.

    No I don't see the incoherence in my views. Being gay can land you several years in Senegal, child marriages are still taking place in Malaysian sharia courts , and parts of Indonesia have some gruesome punishments for criminal offenses.

    Malaysians outraged over reports of child marriage

    And I like how you quickly shift the topic over to Evangelicals and Catholics. I'm with you on that one. I don't like right wingers of that ilk either. But it seems that this is a common leftist fallacy as they try to make me look the other way when it's revealed how illiberal and far-right Islamic culture can be.

    Understandable. I get that this is just a faction of the left who favors this, not the entire left. But because enough activists and elected officials support something like this, it really causes me to wonder what many of their true motives are. Some are upfront and truthful about what they believe, others are more inconspicuous.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2018
  4. 6-eyed shaman

    6-eyed shaman Sock-eye salmon

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    If this calculated offensiveness is not protected by the first amendment, then how come the ACLU keeps on defending hate groups with their demonstrating in the streets?

    I'd argue that white power marches are far more of an insight of hatred and offense then handing out satirical fliers of gay gods.

    Yes, know my audience. Again this sounds like a personal problem with Muslims being stereotypical more touchy about their deities being satirized.

    It sounds to me that for the last month or so, you've been hounding on me that it is MORE inappropriate to mock Islam, because they are more likely to retaliate in violence.

    This is succumbing to the fear of terrorism, and allowing terrorism to work.
     
  5. 6-eyed shaman

    6-eyed shaman Sock-eye salmon

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    Other sources say otherwise:

    Migrant crime in Germany rises by 50 per cent, new figures show
    Sweden 'covering up' migrant rape and violent crime for the sake of 'humanitarianism'
    Gang assaults on women shock Cologne
    Sweden: Summer Inferno of Sexual Assaults
    2016 Nice attack - Wikipedia


    It seems that there's a ton of clashing information from different sources. One side is accusing the other of lying and promoting xenophobia, and the opposite side is accusing the other of covering up real crime incidents.

    However, there are plenty of other indications that many of these criminals who committed these atrocities are not actually syrian refugees. Go figure. As expected, it would be painfully naive that no criminals or terrorists would take advantage of the mass migration program.

    I mean, ALL NGO boats in the Mediterranean are thought to be transporting "refugees" to escape war and genocide. But it turns out, they were actually trafficking illegal immigrants.

    Italy seizes NGO rescue boat for allegedly aiding illegal migration
    Southern mayors defy Italian coalition to offer safe port to migrants
     
  6. 6-eyed shaman

    6-eyed shaman Sock-eye salmon

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    Well, next time come up with an analogy that more closely aligns with the issue at hand. You'll be able to argue your points a lot better, and you won't end up looking like a fool.



    What trap? Of course there are things that are not protected by free speech. Such as screaming "fire" in a crowded theater (prime example)

    If my wife is a celebrity, or better yet a controversial politician, and Bob is a crazy hooligan yelling and screaming in protest of her, then yes, he can do that. Because famous people including movie stars, high profile politicians, professional athletes, fictional characters (like Allah), and more are considered fair game (and they are used to it).
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2018
  7. 6-eyed shaman

    6-eyed shaman Sock-eye salmon

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    Bitching about getting a green ribbon? More like venting my frustrations about not being rewarded the fruits of my labor.
     
  8. hotwater

    hotwater Senior Member Lifetime Supporter

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    By treating violence as a public health issue rather than a policing problem it will help to reverse the trend in places like London
     
  9. Balbus

    Balbus Senior Member

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    6

    So you would do what?

    Force them to assimilate (resistance is futile) as the Spanish Christian kingdoms did with the ‘moors’ and Jews in renaissance Spain (no-one expects the Spanish inquisition)?

    The Spanish also deported many of those that didn’t comply with the assimilation process or where thought not to be working hard enough at it.

    So let’s see - someone is born in the UK and is a law abiding citizen, how far do they have to go to be seen as been or trying to be assimilated and who decides on what is the right level of assimilation?

    We have a citizen test for newcomers that as many have pointed out wouldn’t be passed by many of those that already have citizenship – if this was used and they failed this ‘assimilation’ test would they also have to leave the country?

    Again I don’t believe you give ideas that much though it’s all led by your own prejudices and a desire to spread division.
     
  10. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    Shaman:"If they come to a country with no desire to assimilate, no desire to learn the language, no desire respect the national culture, and don't offer skills to better themselves and that society, then they probably don't belong there." Your sentence is structured so that the word "if" applies to each clause in the sentence. so I count four "ifs". I doubt that there are many immigrants who meet all four.
     
  11. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    Ummmm.... yeah!

    A foreign body governing over a sovereign state that did not elect this government is the epitome of authoritarianism. Global governance is a huge threat to all our personal freedoms.

    [​IMG]

    [/Quote]You seem to have a narrow, cartoonish view of "globalist"--formed, no doubt, by the right wing conspiracy theories that seem to form your information sources. Globalist: someone who believes that economic and foreign policy should be planned in an international way, rather than according to what is best for one particular country." https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/globalist

    Your own use of the term-"-A foreign body governing over a sovereign state that did not elect this government" --Guys sitting around a table plotting the fate of the world --smacks of the illuminati, and is classic ethno-nationalist propaganda.
    Globalism: A Far-Right Conspiracy Theory Buoyed by Trump
    Why Trump Fans Keep Using The Slur 'Globalist'
     
  12. Balbus

    Balbus Senior Member

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    LOL

    But ‘free market’ neo-libarlism has already created an economic global governance that favours the wealthy, but when people talk of reining in this economic global governance, we get righ wingers claiming it’s a left wing conspiracy.

    Here is something I wrote a couple of years back -

    Many on the right attack the idea of social global governance while seemingly saying very little about economic global governance.


    They warn against global ‘governance’ ‘regulation’ or ‘laws’ without seeming to realise that these things are in place it’s just what they favour wealth and serve its interests, while often been detrimental to the majority.

    It seems to me that the political history of the 20th century (in the industrialised nations) has been to one degree or another about the curtailment of the adverse effects of 19th century exploitative capitalism (some call classical liberalism).

    People in many nations fought for voting rights, social benefits, safer working conditions, progressive taxation, and decent living wages. The result of that movement was that the economic benefits of production were much more distributed. Many people saw their wages grow and in the period between the end of WWII and 1970 many in Europe and the US gain middle class status.

    But from the 70’s onward a new idea was promoted in some of these nations (often referred to as neo-liberalism) it was in many ways opposed to the ‘distributive’ system that had developed. One thing it promoted was economic globalisation, which basically allowed back some aspects of exploitative capitalism by promoting the moving of production to nations that had not developed the more distributive systems away from those nations that had.

    In this way the long fought for distributive system has been undermined in those places where it had developed. Neo-liberals argue that to ‘compete’ in the global market the elements of the distributive system need to be dismantled what is needed they say is deregulation, the cutting of welfare, tax cuts that benefit the rich, lower wages, weak government oversight etc etc.

    So what we are getting in is the dismantling of the distributive system in the developed countries while in some developing countries the conditions resemble what was happening in the west before people’s struggle to get rid of exploitation (the fire in Bangladesh that killed over a thousand factory workers comes to mind).

    So what can be done well as James K Galbriath has argued –

    We must confront the global inequality crisis. For this, we must, in the final analysis, raise real wages in the countries with which our workers compete, expand their markets for our goods, and reduce their pressure on our wage structure”

    To me what neoliberal inspired right wingers seem to be aiming for is for a few to be able to exploit the many more easily across the globe.

    I think we need to fight again for social balance but this time it has to be global. To counter the economic globalisation that has already taken place we need social globalisation to be brought in, and that means social global governance to counter the already in place economic global governance.
     
  13. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    No, but fascism denotes a particular kind of totalitarian movement associated with Hitler and Mussolini. To use the term as a kind of cuss word or synonym for authoritarianism blunts its analytical utility. Webster's defines it as :"a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition." Fascism differs from communism in its emphasis on nationalism and de-emphasis on egalitarianism. Difference Between Communism and fascism | Difference Between. Populism+Nativism+Scapegoating+Fuhrer Principle+Statism=Fascism. It can be Right Wing (Franco; Mussolini) or Left wing (Peron; Chavez), depending on the rhetoric and the attitude toward the well-to-do. Right-wing Fascism has a nationalist emphasis downplaying conflict with privilege and property; Left-wing Fascism claims to be the instrument of the working class hostile to the privileged, propertied interests. The closest we've come to Fascism recently are the ethno-nationalist movements in western Europe and the United States. Opinion | Is Fascism Returning to Europe? How clever of you to broaden its meaning so that you can use it against the things you don't like, while masking its particular connection things you do like.
     
  14. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    Oh, those Maylasians! But the title of your link indicates that they are outraged by the reports of child marriage not accepting of them. The report goes on to say that the government could find no record of the marriage, and that "The ministry looks seriously upon underage marriage." So what, again, are you trying to illustrate by this example? Last I looked, Aceh was the only province in Indonesia that adheres to Sharia. As for Sengal, they are relatively democratic for a Third Word country, but are indeed homophobic, like the Christian countries of sub-Saharan Africa. As I mentioned, several southern states had stiff penalties for sodomy before the Supreme Court case in 2003 finding them unconstitutional. In fact over a decade after the Supreme Court ruling, Oklahoma and Kansas specifically make gay sex illegal, while nine other states forbid anal and/or oral sex for everyone. Although such laws are rarely enforced to prosecute consensual sex, but they send a message.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2018
  15. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    That may be true, but beside the point. First of all, the ACLU consists of a group of First Amendment absolutists who sometimes win their cases. Second, the Supreme Court vigorously defends the right of groups to demonstrate in support of their beliefs, including hate groups, because (a) demonstrations are an important form of expressive conduct and assembly; and (b) demonstrations on behalf of a cause are communicating serious ideas. In Lauren's case, she wasn't serious about her message. It was contrived as an experiment to provoke the Muslims. That's the very definition of fighting words.
     
  16. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    How so? It's not terrorism to be easily offended by an affront to the sacred. I just returned from a patriotic celebration of the Fourth of July in which each of my neighbors, one by one, recounted how much this country means to them, and how awful it is that people living here don't respect the USA. Suppose somebody came up to the group and held up a sign saying "Fuck the United States!" The perpetrator had better be able to run fast. Otherwise, it wouldn't go well for him, even if the ACLU had his back. A person might argue that these super-patriots deserve no respect, they're defending atrocities in Vietnam, Iraq, etc, and (s)he's not gonna stand for it. But if the police notice (s)he's on the way to do that, they can intervene in the interest of civil order. If you decide you're not going to let a bunch of hypersensitive Muslims inhibit you about saying "Allah is gay", to their faces, that's your call. But understand the authorities might prefer to avoid a potential riot.You can mock Islam to your heart's content, but if you use fighting words to do it, don't expect the courts to consider that protected speech. BTW, this isn't my opinion, and I'm not discussing what's "inappropriate". I'm telling you what the position of U.S. courts is on fighting words. British courts have an even stricter view. Besides, you still ignore the central points that: (1) Lauren didn't actually believe that Allah is gay but was saying that, not to express a thought but to get a rise out of the Muslims; and (2) Lauren had no right to enter the country.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2018
  17. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    So in the absence of reliable evidence, you're willing to stand by a charge that Muslim immigrants are causing a crime wave in Europe "that correlates to the rise in mass immigration". Didn't they ever tell you in stat class that correlation isn't causation? He who asserts must prove. I need to see better evidence. The ways in which these lurid tales of rape and pillage by Muslims originate and become perpetuated are nicely outlined by Horn.
    The Origin of Refugee Crime Rumors - The Atlantic
    Is Malmo the 'rape capital' of Europe?
    The so-called ‘Islamic rape of Europe’ is part of a long and racist history
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2018
  18. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    So I ask what Balbus has also asked. You've identified "far right " components of the population you don't like. What would you do about them? Deport them (presumably not the Catholics and the Evangelicals)? Antagonize them and hope they go away? That might result in a lot of political unrest and instability. You represent a component of the population I don't like. So what else is new? I submit the answer is that you, Lauren, and Milo would use them as a vehicle to advance and ethno-nationalist agenda. Across Europe--Poland, Hungary, Italy, Greece--political demagogues, with help from that great libertarian Uncle Vlad, are using these issues to advance causes that are anything but libertarian. I think we need to take a look at "how illiberal and far-right" ethno-nationalism can be.

    And the irony is, for all your concern about protecting us from the authoritarian Muslims, that we have a President who openly expresses his admiration for dictators and contempt for democratically elected leaders and the free press, who thinks he can pardon himself from any crime, and who is about to make another appointment to the Supreme Court--tipping the balance in a right wing direction. Liberals fret about the impact on abortion and gay rights. It's certainly not inconceivable that Lawrence v. Texas will be reversed and those anti-sodomy laws still on the books in my state will be enforced again. So what's this really about?
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2018
    Balbus likes this.
  19. Balbus

    Balbus Senior Member

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    Okie

    It seems to me that the Trumpets, alt-right and their fellow travellers don’t have any solutions and what’s worse they don’t seem to be even looking for solutions. The new right seem fuelled on grievance and scapegoating they seem more interested in destruction than building for a better future.

    There ideas also seem ill prepared for the future with social and economic ideologies that have more in common with the 19th than the 21st century.

    The west faces growing problems (technological change, demographics, climate change etc) that we need to be at the very least thinking about if not putting in place measures to deal with them and instead we have ill-informed people that don’t care and cheer deficit ballooning tax cuts for the rich instead.

    I can only hope this is the apogee of this particular stage in human stupidity and hope the madness will end for all our sakes.
     
    Okiefreak likes this.
  20. unfocusedanakin

    unfocusedanakin The Archaic Revival Lifetime Supporter

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