Do you suppose that the Leviathan could have been a chinese river dragon?: Job 41:1 "Can you draw out Leviathan with a hook,Or snare his tongue with a line which you lower? 2 Can you put a reed through his nose,Or pierce his jaw with a hook? 3 Will he make many supplications to you?Will he speak softly to you? 4 Will he make a covenant with you?Will you take him as a servant forever? 5 Will you play with him as with a bird,Or will you leash him for your maidens? 6 Will your companions make a banquet of him?Will they apportion him among the merchants? 7 Can you fill his skin with harpoons,Or his head with fishing spears? 8 Lay your hand on him;Remember the battle — Never do it again! 9 Indeed, any hope of overcoming him is false;Shall one not be overwhelmed at the sight of him? 10 No one is so fierce that he would dare stir him up.Who then is able to stand against Me? 11 Who has preceded Me, that I should pay him?Everything under heaven is Mine. 12 "I will not conceal his limbs,His mighty power, or his graceful proportions. 13 Who can remove his outer coat?Who can approach him with a double bridle? 14 Who can open the doors of his face,With his terrible teeth all around? 15 His rows of scales are his pride,Shut up tightly as with a seal; 16 One is so near another That no air can come between them; 17 They are joined one to another,They stick together and cannot be parted. 18 His sneezings flash forth light,And his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning. 19 Out of his mouth go burning lights;Sparks of fire shoot out. 20 Smoke goes out of his nostrils,As from a boiling pot and burning rushes. 21 His breath kindles coals,And a flame goes out of his mouth. 22 Strength dwells in his neck,And sorrow dances before him. 23 The folds of his flesh are joined together;They are firm on him and cannot be moved. 24 His heart is as hard as stone,Even as hard as the lower millstone. 25 When he raises himself up, the mighty are afraid;Because of his crashings they are beside themselves. 26 Though the sword reaches him, it cannot avail;Nor does spear, dart, or javelin. 27 He regards iron as straw,And bronze as rotten wood. 28 The arrow cannot make him flee;Slingstones become like stubble to him. 29 Darts are regarded as straw;He laughs at the threat of javelins. 30 His undersides are like sharp potsherds;He spreads pointed marks in the mire. 31 He makes the deep boil like a pot;He makes the sea like a pot of ointment. 32 He leaves a shining wake behind him;One would think the deep had white hair. 33 On earth there is nothing like him,Which is made without fear. 34 He beholds every high thing;He is king over all the children of pride." Isa 27:1 In that day the LORD with His severe sword, great and strong, Will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, Leviathan that twisted serpent; And He will slay the reptile that is in the sea. According to the descriptions: spits fire, lives in the water, has scales, is snake-like... this could be IMO, what do you think he was?
well looking at some of the descriptions ...a serpent, cannot over come him...lots of fire and stuff... sounds like the common description of Satan to me...or at least an Earthly incarnations of it *shrug*
Where is that first quote from? I'd say it could be a reconstruction based on fossils people had found. It is known that many people found dinosaur bones and other extinct, large creatures and thought they were the bones of ancient heros or gods (the reason so many of the heros are described as being so gigantic), or, if skulls were found they'd "invent" dragons or other terrible creatures to explain them. For example, the cyclops was probably dreamt up to explain ancient mammoth skulls, which have a huge hole in the middle where one would think the eyes would go (it's really where the trunk goes). Many Greek temples had such fossils, and there are descriptions and tales of men finding bones, having ceremonies with them, then reburying them, thinking of them as local heros/gods. This brought the finder much honor and respect and was a signal of good fortune for him and his people. Other than that? People have imaginations, did then and do now. People also have dreams/nightmares/visions/hallucinations. Could be that they dreamed of terrible beasts and that's the origin. And consider also: these beasts are both described as water-dwelling beasts, right? Well, both the middle easterners/Medditeranean peoples (think Phoenecians, for example) and the Chinese were excellent sea-farers. They must have encountered whales and sharks and all kinds of other large creatures of the sea. Couple that with an innate fear of the water, add a generous amount of ignorance, and a dash of creative embellishment, and you could easilly get fire breathing dragons of the deep. Also, one must take into account cultural assimilation, both secular and religious. Though many cultures would have seen whales, or snakes, or whatever, maybe one interpretation was particularly titilating, and spread across the world.
im going to clarify...i dont think its describing Satan... and to add to Trippin's post... the ceolacanth was found to exist after so many years of supposed extinction...im sure there is some large reptile like sea creature out there, somewhere; not a nessie though, but an acctual sea creature...
Nature (the art whereby God hath made and governes the world) is by the art of man, as in many other things, so in this also imitated, that it can make an Artificial Animal. For seeing life is but a motion of Limbs, the begining whereof is in some principall part within; why may we not say, that all Automata (Engines that move themselves by springs and wheeles as doth a watch) have an artificiall life? For what is the Heart, but a Spring; and the Nerves, but so many Strings; and the Joynts, but so many Wheeles, giving motion to the whole Body, such as was intended by the Artificer? Art goes yet further, imitating that Rationall and most excellent worke of Nature, Man. For by Art is created that great LEVIATHAN called a COMMON-WEALTH, or STATE, (in latine CIVITAS) which is but an Artificiall Man; though of greater stature and strength than the Naturall, for whose protection and defence it was intended; and in which, the Soveraignty is an Artificiall Soul, as giving life and motion to the whole body; The Magistrates, and other Officers of Judicature and Execution, artificiall Joynts; Reward and Punishment (by which fastned to the seat of the Soveraignty, every joynt and member is moved to performe his duty) are the Nerves, that do the same in the Body Naturall; The Wealth and Riches of all the particular members, are the Strength; Salus Populi (the Peoples Safety) its Businesse; Counsellors, by whom all things needfull for it to know, are suggested unto it, are the Memory; Equity and Lawes, an artificiall Reason and Will; Concord, Health; Sedition, Sicknesse; and Civill War, Death. Lastly, the Pacts and Covenants, by which the parts of this Body Politique were at first made, set together, and united, resemble that Fiat, or the Let Us Make Man, pronounced by God in the Creation. -Hobbes Leviathan
A person known to me who suffers from mental prblems has a nice explanation for this. He says that Yaweh of the OT is a shortened form of 'Jah-Whale' - in other words, god is a whale, and lives under the sea. Leviathan is another name for him. I should also tell you that this same person believes that Christ and the 12 were in fact dinosaurs 'Christ triceretops' evidently. As I say, this person has suffered from severe mental illness for some time, but actually, his version of things is just as probable as some of the so called exegisis I've seen and heard from those who call themselves sane. Leviathan is a myth - probably incorporated from some other mythology. The Norse for example believed that a huge serpent encircles the world. It's a throwback to some earlier mythic cycle. And don't forget Behemoth.
maybe Babaloynian... some scholars that the noah story is a embelished story [possibly from true accounts] of a river merchant and his family who get washed out to see when their river floods...there was probobly more information, but i cant rememerb it... then, on the topic of noah, there is always the classic "super flood of the black sea"
you know the whole breathing fire thing is totally biologically possible, there very well could be creatures that could breath fire that have passed before. there is a creature that produces and releases fire from it's abdomen, bombadier beatles.... they're cool.....
But could he be nuked? Or maybe poison gas would do him in. Seriously though. The OT contains numerous and varied descriptions of Satan and/or various daemon like creatures. Leviathan clearly fits into the previous sentence. Notice that the passages describing him are couched in terms of conflict between God and leviathan, with God being the inevitable victor. If leviathan were merely some big sea creature however fearsome he would not appear as God's primary methapsyical rival in these passages. Throughout history people have seen and written about all sorts of fantastical monsters. If we are to believe in a real-world leviathan monster then why not Leperchauns, Yeti, Minotaurs, etc. Yes, the celocanth was thought extinct but turned out not to be, yet this is a very different situation. Celocanth was and is a thoroughly plausible fish creature for which extensive psyical evidence existed. It's existence in times past was never in question, what was in question was whether or not it still existed, a question which was answered definitively in the affirmative. If not a description of Satan or some daemon then leviathan is no more than an ancient myth from an ancient book. There is no evidence that it ever existed at all, much less that it exists now.
Behemoth's a Diplodocus... I believe before the flood people lived with dinosaurs...there's even evidance for that. But about Leviathan being satan...I don't think so. The Lord didn't say it was evil. Whales don't eat meat...and they don't breathe fire. And whales don't have scales either. It can't be a crocodile (like the NLT, was it? Or was YLT? Translated). Becaue an alligator/crocodile can quite easily be killed with the spear. And alligators don't breathe fire. Leviathan must have been a dinosaur, more specificallly a dragon IMO, even MORE specifically a Chinese river dragon.
Not every descrition of Satan or daemons states explicitly that they are evil. It is assumed that we already know that Satan is evil. Leviathans behaviour, however, is evil and he is protrayed as being in conflict with God. Animals are not in conflict with God, they did not rebel against him and neither could they. So Leviathan could not have been an animal. Dragons would be animals if they existed. Whales do indeed eat meat, infact all whales eat meat. Granted, the balleen whales eat very tiny meat, but meat nonetheless. Toothed whales, such as killer whale and the sperm whale eat big meat, like sea lions and giant squid.
quote: believe before the flood people lived with dinosaurs...there's even evidance for that No...there isn't.
I didn't know sea-lions were a type of whale... I thought whales lived off plankton. He's not portrayed evil...he's portrayed mighty and strong... Tyranosaurus is mean...but not a devil...
true. If you look at the book of Job, satan comes off as an asshole, but not necessarily evil. In fact that book gives the impression that god and satan hangout together, sort of as competitive friends. It also gives the impression that satan's allowed to come and go as he pleases in gods realm. I'm not saying this is what the author intended but Leviathan sounds like a pretty good description of the human subconscous; Lurking beneath the surface, immune to our feeble harpoons (our resolutions, good intentions, even alot of our spiritual practices) only concerned with it's appetites, the "King of those who live by pride" (pride is what keeps us from confronting ourslves, finding our true nature, or discovering our true intentions). Like I said I'm not saying this was the authors intent, but I think alot of what's in the bible works on a lot of different levels.
Yes, there is. There are records of human footprints near dinosaur footprints, as well as human skelatons found laying pretty close to those of dinosaurs
Sea-lions aren't whales. Killer whales eat sea-lions. Read it again, I said "Toothed whales such as killer whale and the sperm whale eat big meat, like sea lions." "Plankton" is a fairly general term. It referes to a great variety of small plants and animals. Jellyfish are a type of plankton, as can some tiny single-celled organisms. The kind of plankton eaten by Balleen whales is called "krill". There are over 82 species of krill, and they are animals and therefore meat. http://www.chesapeakebay.net/info/plankton.cfm http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/invertebrates/crustacean/Krillprintout.shtml Tyranosaurs was not mean, at least as far as we know. Tyranosaurs was probably a scavanger. Job 21:34 He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride. I Guess that is not really "evil" behavior, but it is obviously a description of satan. "King over all the children of pride" can only be Satan. Isaiah 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea. He is called "crooked" here, meaning wicked or evil. This is clearly a reference to Satan, especially given the full context of the book of Isaiah. This passage talks about the day of judgement. Isaiah is all about that kind of thing. It is not about God going on a hunting expedition to China, which is what it would have to be about if leviathan were a chinese dragon.
