Just wondering......... Similarities

Discussion in 'Politics' started by erofant, Sep 1, 2021.

  1. erofant

    erofant Members

    I was just watching & listening to in-the-field reporting from Louisiana and other states affected by hurricane / tropical storm Ida. Residents were asking for state & federal government help to get them through this disaster. One of their main worries is their health & safety caused by lack of electricity, no clean water, food spoilage, etc. Those are in addition to flooding, wind-caused property damage, etc.

    The need for government help to get them through an emergency situation. Doesn't this "need for government help" also apply to the GLOBAL Covid pandemic??????????? It seems many millions of "big government is the problem" folks are now clamoring for that same "big government" help. When will people realize that none of us can "go it alone" in times of serious catastrophes - whether they be weather related, disease related, economy related ....... or a combination of any of those???

    I wish millions of "government complainers" would realize this about the federal, state and local governments - they all have an obligation to protect citizens from dangers ....... ALL dangers - not just one that's cherry-picked for political gain. As that relates to the Covid pandemic ..... what the federal government and SOME state governments have been urging / mandating is at the request and advice from the infectious disease experts. "The government" IS NOT the source of the medical recommendations or expertise .......... but "the government" has a mandated responsibility to protect citizens from dangers & to keep them safe. "The government" - in the case of Covid - is only the messenger (in news broadcasts) of what steps the medical experts are urging desperately that the population needs to take. "The government" - as part of it's mandate to protect citizens from danger & keep them safe - then takes the steps to achieve what the medical community deems necessary to stop the spread of this brand new virus. I haven't seen or heard of ANYONE bitching about GOVERNMENT AGENCY issued hurricane warnings, tornado warnings, flood warnings, wildfire warnings, tsunami warnings, etc.


    It's because - following T****'s asinine, unknowing lead, THE REPUBLICAN PARTY POLITICIANS saw how "the base" responded to all things T****. So in order to seize upon political momentum, the REPUBLICAN T**** puppet- politicians ( with the exception of a mere handful ) voiced in unison that "the government" is trying to take away your Constitutional rights by mandating mask-wearing, social distancing, and getting vaccinated. Listening to THE REPUBLICAN PARTY'S LIES about Covid, and the "big, bad government's" efforts to keep people safe - has cost thousands of people their very lives - or the lives of their loved ones, not to mention innocent folks who tried to follow the safety advice.

    These government news broadcasts, warnings, urgings, & mandates concerning Covid are NO DIFFERENT when it comes to the governments' responsibility to keep citizens safe. Safe from ALL observed dangers ...... whether the dangers are from hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, wildfires, tsunamis ........... or GLOBAL PANDEMICS. If any citizen choose to NOT evacuate from a warned hurricane - that poor decision WILL NOT affect other people. ONLY THAT PERSON. But if people choose to NOT get vaccinated, NOT to wear masks & social distance - those poor decisions by them CAN, and most likely WILL - affect others they come in contact with. Those kinds of poor decisions have caused OTHER PEOPLE'S lives to be lost.

    The real kicker in this morning's news reports was the complaint of one guy in Louisiana who said, "We need the government to get in here and help us get back to some kind of normal ........ but we know how long THAT will take." A man in a solidly RED REPUBLICAN state ......... complaining that "the government" is too slow getting there to help him and his community. Kind of an ironic "poetic justice" for the "government haters." Bitching about, biting, and then cutting off the very hand that you want to come help you. o_O :confused:
  2. ~Zen~

    ~Zen~ Wizard in the Castle Administrator

    I just believe that the plot to dumb down America by getting rid of education for the masses worked a little too well.

    Now they are so stupid to realize that voting against anything that improves the government reduces their chances of being helped when needed.

    And why is this?

    Because there are no resources to help. And the infrastructure is a mess from decades of neglect. Both political parties are to blame.

    The thought that is is better to pay no tax, than being prepared is biting them all in the ass.

    Talk about KARMA.
    Toecutter, wilsjane, wrat1 and 2 others like this.
  3. erofant

    erofant Members

    I'm sure that some of the things I was taught in middle and high school back then wouldn't even be PERMITTED to be taught today. Seems we can't have ACTUAL historical facts, environmental education, labor movement by American workers, REAL science, civics ( OH GOD NO!!! We can't have our citizens knowing how their government is supposed to work!!! ), "class" warfare, etc.

    As for your tax comment .......... it's 100% HILARIOUS here when I hear guys bitching about paying taxes, and then whine & whine about how bad our roads & bridges are, underground water lines - over 100 years old - bursting, etc. Corporations and the very wealthiest individuals got H-U-G-E tax breaks in the REPUBLICAN-WRITTEN tax overhaul under T****. Hundreds of BILLIONS of tax dollars went BACK into the pockets of the richest people, and the rest of us "peons" have to pick up the slack for what the richest no longer pay. Numerous corporations and top 1% individuals paid $0 in taxes for the last 4 years....... ZERO!!!

    So if these bitching, blind, unrecognizing guys want better infrastructure (which, BTW, the corporate businesses & top 1% of individuals ALSO USE ....... now for FREE ) these guys better cough up even MORE in taxes to make up for what the richest ARE NOT PAYING. We peons are paying the for - subsidizing, as it's called in political circles - the wealthiest people's use of all our infrastructure. You have the "right" to enjoy ALL THOSE crumbling bridges, pothole-ridden roads, bursting water lines, leaking gas lines, and overworked power grids.

    Hey !!!!! ......... avg. Americans out there (of every political party) .......... how do you all like that raw, burning, "wire brush" feeling in your asses??? Feeling like someone parked their limo up your ass?? Or their yacht???

    Thank THE REPUBLICAN PARTY and T**** for the piece-of-shit tax overhaul that reamed your anus to become that parking lot.
    scratcho likes this.
  4. Tyrsonswood

    Tyrsonswood Senior Moment Lifetime Supporter

    Kids having a subsidized lunch in school = "socialism"

    Factory farms getting unnecessary subsidies = "Good for business"
    erofant and scratcho like this.
  5. scratcho

    scratcho Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

    And please don't listen to the republicans who are fighting against teaching CRT. Of course they don't want it pointed out that this country has been racist from the get-go. The native Americans and the black and brown folks have been and still are discriminated against in all ways possible. There have been some gains, but to deny that everyone has had equality is insane but standard fare, especially by those that call themselves conservatives / republicans. Anyone who denies that white privilege is fiction---is obviously WHITE. They are disgusting liars and hopefully the fabled chickens will come home to roost one fine day.
  6. erofant

    erofant Members

    Yep - the first ones to get the shaft were the Native Americans .......... you know .......... the ones who weren't white "immigrants" from Europe. NOW .......... white descendants of those European immigrants are telling other immigrants they don't belong here with us white, European-ancestry "native Americans." o_O :rolleyes:

    Pots calling kettles names.
  7. wilsjane

    wilsjane Members

    What is the truth about covid in the USA.?

    Here in the UK, we now have the World Health Authority mortality figures for 2020, Our mortality was 1.7% up on the 5 year average and identical to 2017 when we had a flue epidemic. It was lower than previous flue epidemic figures in years prior to 2017
    Our average mortality is around 1,500 people per day, but on the days when the media was reporting 800+ covid deaths, our TOTAL mortality was only up by about 20
    All this was a lack of understanding of how viruses play a part in our final 72 hours and the correct definition of PRIMARY cause of death.
    To better understand this complex issue, consider that more than 1,000 died today within 72 hours of drinking a cup of tea. But that does not mean that the tea was responsible for their death. You can manipulate figures to fit almost any story.

    All this has created political turmoil worldwide, due to governments attempting to control th spread of the virus below the levels that would overwhelm the health services. But it is as important NOT to slow natural immunity, which is the long term solution. This is because the lifespan of ALL viruses is around 400 years, by which time our immunity has won the battle

    The WHA mortality figure for the USA is around 8,000 per day, but the US government has still not submitted a 2020 figure.
    With all the political upheaval and malicious scaremongering, where does the truth fit in.
  8. ~Zen~

    ~Zen~ Wizard in the Castle Administrator

    The point you are missing, and has been proven to be flawed is the mortality counts.

    In New York State alone they had to add more than 800 deaths previously 'unreported' by a scurrilous former governor who has recently resigned due to a sex scandal.

    You can not believe the government figures. Not from any country. They don't want you to panic... Ha!
    erofant and Captain Scarlet like this.
  9. Toecutter

    Toecutter Moderator

    New governor of New York adds 12,000 deaths to publicized COVID tally
    erofant, ~Zen~ and Captain Scarlet like this.
  10. ~Zen~

    ~Zen~ Wizard in the Castle Administrator

  11. Captain Scarlet

    Captain Scarlet Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

    Most figures are inaccurate as they are only the reported cases .

    The UK are down by 4 with mine alone as I wasn't daft enough to report it, as I dont welcome Big Brother watching you tactics that follows .:eek::eek:
    Toecutter likes this.
  12. erofant

    erofant Members

    wilsjane -

    Throughout our U.S. history - and the history of other countries as well - health services and governments have sought to protect citizens and minimize serious / fatal disease outbreaks. This was done pretty much WITHOUT any arguments and political posturing anywhere. Since T**** entered the U.S. political picture - with his "claims" of knowing more than all the infectious disease experts ( as well as all the military generals and war planners, AND climate experts !! ) ....... the doubts and skepticism he sowed into people's minds on a host of topics has now polluted many of the population's trusts in A-N-Y-T-H-I N-G. Well hasn't THAT worked out well??

    Never before the LYING ASSHOLE T**** came on the scene, did populations rabidly doubt and scream about healthcare systems' knowledge - or accuse them of trying to subvert our democracy. Healthcare was NOT POLITICAL prior to T****. But T**** and his loyal LEMMINGS (which include the REPUBLICAN POLITICIANS here, who saw political gain by agreeing to T****'s every word) have now turned our healthcare systems (here and abroad) into targets for political gain. This T****-effect is unprecedented in regard to healthcare / infectious disease trust by the public.

    As to the "actual" causes of death comments - If someone has heart disease, or epilepsy, or cancer, or arthritis, or MS, that they've had for some time - and been living with successfully - but contracted Covid-19 and within days died of respiratory failure / pneumonia ......... I think any rational person would agree with any doctor who concluded they died from Covid - not some other disease they've been living with prior to the Covid infection.

    As you said - data can be manipulated ............. but that also happens in the OTHER DIRECTION ............... notably & commonly by people in politics seeking to win an election or retain a seat in some level of government. T****'s "base" of voters was bamboozled into doubting everything because of him. So other REPUBLICAN POLITICIANS saw this "pool of believers" as compliant, moldable (< accurate descriptions) as votes for THEM if they agreed with T****'s every word. So in order to secure votes for themselves, we have DeSantis and Abbott in Florida & Texas (respectively) and other REPUBLICAN POLITICIANS - hanging on to T****'s messages of denial, doubt of TRUE healthcare experts (with decades of experience), and the outright LIE that healthcare experts are trying to subvert our democracy & take away our "Constitutional rights."

    Holy shit, that's a pile of claims against the very healthcare experts & systems ( and their vaccines ) that wiped out polio, smallpox, typhoid, measles (until very recent anti-vaxxers put their kids in schools & measles has once again surfaced here), rubella, whooping cough, mumps, etc. What a lot of people are not absorbing is that the Covid vaccine does not make you 100% protected from getting Covid - but it does keep it from becoming serious in almost all people who DO get Covid. "Regular" seasonal flu shots don't keep you from getting the flu, but the shots DO lessen the severity of the flu if you get it. I have my own experience with the flu, once without the flu shot, (horrible - 104 fever, constant hacking cough, sore throat, severe aches everywhere, hurt to blink my eyes), and twice WITH the flu shot - NOT NEARLY as bad as without the shot. MUCH more tolerable WITH the flu shots. (Flu was blood test-verified in all cases).

    People also have short memories / lack of simple knowledge. Covid-19 is a brand new virus that's infected humans for the first time. So complete knowledge about it is impossible - and ........ like ALL viruses .......... it mutates. Even the common cold virus (also in the corona virus family) mutates - that's why we can get "common colds" more than once - it mutates. That's also why most people get seasonal flu shots each year - because the flu virus mutates. So the people who disparage Fauci and all the other infectious doctors for changing info ...... forget that the "playing field" keeps changing - not just because of mutations - but because unvaccinated people and those who go into crowds or groups without masks or keeping a safe distance are causing these outbreaks everywhere. Those facts may piss off some folks, but when the disease experts warn people that being unvaccinated and not wearing masks / distancing will cause more outbreaks ........ and it happens just as they warned ......... well - WTF did anyone expect???
    scratcho likes this.
  13. erofant

    erofant Members

    I should add that if it was a Democrat, or Independent, or Green Party, or Libertarian that was president at the onset of the Covid outbreak - and they made the same outlandish statements and comments that T**** did concerning Covid and vaccines - I'd call THEM an asshole too. Stupidity and arrogance know NO POLITICAL PARTY. They aren't unique to any one party.

    Credit to Republican Governor Mike DeWine of Ohio for using common sense in dealing with Covid. He followed protocols and medical advice and Ohio's numbers weren't as bad as some Republican-controlled states. The man tried to do the right thing. ( he's also an older man, so probably had more life experience/wisdom, and less testosterone fueling his "rage". )
  14. wilsjane

    wilsjane Members

    This is where the answer lies. However, since 95% of ALL people who die contract the CURRENT PROLIFIC VIRUS within their final 72 hours, it is impossible to see the true picture.

    The mortality figure for the USA, based on a 5 year average, is around 8.000 deaths per day. It is only by seeing the 2020 mortality figure MINUS the 8.000 per day that will show where a virus is the primary cause of death.
    As a rough guide, every 1% of plus variation, indicates a 21 day reduction in the dying peoples lives.
    ~Zen~ likes this.
  15. wilsjane

    wilsjane Members

    What you say is true, BUT, 95% of these people will finally die when a virus attacks their immune system, allowing pathogenic bacteria to lead to pneumonia leading to septicemia, or renal failure leading to multi organ shutdown. Peaks in these deaths have been seen during ANY virus epidemic for decades.

    Frequently, these people have already been saved a number of times by the ever increasing expertise of doctors in ICU. But their is a limit before death becomes inevitable.
    This is the reason that it was vital to slow covis down, preventing these units from becoming overwhelmed, resulting in unnecessary deaths.
    Unfortunately, this had the affect of slowing the development and spread of natural immunity and dragging the epidemic on.

    Make no mistake, covid will still be with us 400 years from now, but within a few years, we will be immune to the virus.
    The corona family of viruses have been common in animals since the dawn of medical science. This is why covid is not killing animals, birds or marine life.

    Against a background of 8,000 deaths in the US every day, it is very easy to not see the full picture. Since more than half of these deaths involve people in the categories that you mentioned, it becomes even more confusing.

    Hopefully my comments on these threads will help with understanding and perspective. But I am NOT saying that people should no do everything possible to protect themselves and others from this particularly nasty virus. People not following the general guidelines are selfish idiots
    erofant likes this.
  16. Piney

    Piney Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

  17. erofant

    erofant Members

    In the latest "surge", the numbers of hospitalized, ICU patients, and deaths are mostly among un-vaccinated people. The HOSPITALS are the entities reporting those figures. They know because they ask the patients - or their relatives bringing them in - if they've been vaccinated. I have close friends who are nurses - so I get the inside story on how these patients are counted. Hospitals aren't running for office. If someone dies from a car accident, they don't get funding for highway safety!!! They aren't looking to gain votes!!! They have no axe to grind.

    The sheer percentages in the latest "surge" point to the fact that un-vaccinated people are - and have been - more likely to end up in an ICU or die from Covid-19. Break-through cases of vaccinated people ARE happening - but with much better outcomes for the most part, than un-vaccinated people.

    If you see big, 10 inch-long tracks in the mud with claw marks - was it a bear that made them - or the mouse someone else tells you made them????
    ~Zen~ likes this.
  18. wilsjane

    wilsjane Members

    This is sometimes difficult to fully get your head around.
    Here in the UK about 700 people die every day earlier than the average life expectancy as a result of a cancer.
    During ANY virus epidemic, it is obvious that a percentage of these people will be carrying the virus. Where the virus caused their death earlier than doctors expected, it is reasonable to blame the virus, but when they died at around the time of their consultants prognosis it is not.
    You also need to consider the fact that more than 95% of all people who are dying contract a virus during their final 72 hours.
    This makes the situation extremely complex.
    Most doctors agree that covid has shortened the life of chronically ill patients by around 21 days.

    2019 was fairly virus free, so people were living the extra days. This resulted in an all time low mortality rate in the UK. So when covid hit us in 2020, the figures hit a peak, resulting in a 2% rise in the annual mortality figure over the previous year.
    Roughly the same happened in 2017, but no one even noticed.

    As I have said before, covid is a nasty virus, so we should all take care and slow it down.
    ~Zen~ likes this.
  19. erofant

    erofant Members

    I'm speaking about the situation here in the U.S. We have, unfortunately, a large population of moron dolts who've chosen to listen to wannabe, he-man politicians & radio shock-jocks / flapping lips for big money - instead of REAL ACTUAL infectious disease experts. Then they drag our Constitution into their argument, saying they have rights to refuse vaccinations and safety protocols like masks & social distancing. They seem to forget - or don't give a shit - about the RIGHTS of others to be protected from a BRAND NEW virus attacking humans for the VERY FIRST TIME. Wise prudence doesn't even enter those people's vacant, selfish minds. For all these so-called "tough guy he-men" here in the U.S. - how "tough" can they be if wearing a mask is too much for them??????? I've worked in BIG construction all my life, and had to wear the very same kind of masks all day long due to dusts of various types, dangerous vapors and chemicals. WHAT IS THE BIG DEAL?????? If it was hard to breathe as some "he-men" have claimed .......... I'd have been dead years ago. Hard to breathe wearing a mask????? More lies & sensationalism.

    Many of the folks who've been hospitalized - or died - here in the U.S. had no previous underlying medical conditions before Covid hit them. Many were non-smokers, many were younger and healthier individuals. So the claim of "they were sick and would have died anyway" is F-A-L-S-E. Two of my close relatives almost died - were at death's door in the ICU - and were healthy, life-long non-smokers. One is still on oxygen and can't get around the house without help ......... over a year after getting Covid. Doctors told them they're going to have the debilitating after-effects for the rest of their lives. 3 other close friends of mine got Covid and remain on several expensive medications to help them breathe ......... 11 months after getting Covid. Medical costs are insanely high for their treatments - who pays??? Are these kinds of suffering and deaths not enough to urge people to care enough to wear masks, social distance and get vaccinated???? Many of the most vocal critics of vaccinations and masks here in the U.S. - who got Covid and struggled to stay alive, and some eventually DIED - changed their tunes and told people to "go get the shots." Some then died after making their statements. Families left grieving.

    Side note: Bars, restaurants, and other public spaces have banned smoking here for years, because of the inherent dangers of breathing second-hand smoke by non-smokers. Despite some early crying and whining, and NO VIOLENT MARCHES, RIOTS, SHOOTINGS, THREATS TO POLITICIANS or SCHOOL ADMINISTRATORS .......... we've adapted - for years. But somehow some U.S. citizens can't "tough it out" for a few months of wearing masks and social distancing ........ to STOP THE SPREAD!!!!! If all of us would have just heeded the advice of the infectious disease experts - the REAL ONES - many more people could be alive today and the spread would have been shut down for the most part.

    Is all this suffering, death and misery REALLY worth the argument posed by many that their "Constitutional rights" are being taken away ........ when it's actually a TEMPORARY set of steps to mitigate a public health emergency??? Is a year or 2 of "biting the bullet" too much for all the "he-men" out there??? ( The biggest, loudest mouths are from "men" here. )
    scratcho and Tishomingo like this.
  20. wilsjane

    wilsjane Members

    It sounds to me as if the reaction to covid in the US has been far different to here in the UK. While we have all contravened the odd restriction, it has mostly been done with care and for a valid reason. How people in your part of the world can brag about putting lives at risk and overwhelming the health services defies belief.

    Death is a horrible subject and one that for years we have tended to ignore, but covid has now changed all that and planted a lot of fear. The fact that around 8,000 people die every day in the US is something that we tend to shut out of our minds, therefore the circumstances surrounding deaths are rarely talked about.
    Sudden unexplained deaths are far more common than most people realise and most of them seem to have started with the immune system shutting down for no apparent reason. ANY virus, along with pathogenic bacteria will soon take over, leading to respiratory or renal failure and death.
    During covid, their has been no noticeable increase in these deaths, but without a pre-existent medical condition, "covid" often appears on the death certificate as the primary cause.

    With the restrictions having slowed the spread of natural immunity, although I have never opted to take the flue vaccine, I accepted my invitation to take my covid vaccination with open arms. I would advise anyone who is older or has a medical condition to do the same and while it may be unnecessary for the younger generation, anything to slow the virus spread down will help others and speed up our return to normality.

    Since the start of the epidemic, the 4th of my lifelong friends died last week. However, perhaps purely by coincidence, only one of them had covid in their system.
    Perhaps, if that had been different, I would have been seriously questioning my views.

    Take care and don't let the idiots who suggest otherwise grind you down. Regards, Wills.

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