Jews against Israel?

Discussion in 'Judaism' started by Asadullah, Jun 29, 2006.

  1. Asadullah

    Asadullah Member

    I remember seeing in the news a group of jews who went to Iran and agreed with the Iranian president that Israel should be wiped off the map. I don't remember their names but I recall them being "Ultra Orthadox" and said something about jewish law or tradition saying the jews should not have a homeland untill the messiah comes and since they reject jesus as the messiah they are against Israel. What makes them so Ultra Othradox and why do they differ with "mainstream" judaism?
  2. brownxfoot

    brownxfoot Member

    they're called anti-zionists. In reform judiasm there is an emphasis on action, instedof just waiting for our messiah we become the messiah by performing acts of tikkun olam (repairing the world). these anti-zionists that are ultra orthodox believe somewhat that we hsould just live the word of torah and the prophecy will come to pass.

    that's only one group of anti-zionists that i know about there could defntly be alot more reasons out there.
  3. the dauer

    the dauer Member

    That's not the way Reform Judaism typically understands Tikkun Olam. While the concept of Tikkun Olam has kabbalistic origins, in Reform Judaism it simply means healing/repairing the world and is usually being understood as done through social action. The concept of the messiah most closely associated with the Reform movement is that there will be a Messianic Age, a time when all nations will be at peace and such, which will not feature any individual messiah nor any of the more triumphalist, particularly Jewish concepts of messianism such as the rebuilding of the Beit HaMikdash or all of the goyim turning to us. Beliefs of individual Reform Jews may vary. They're also not typically anti-zionist. While originally their platform was anti-zionist, more recent versions, following trends in the beliefs and feelings of Reform Jews, stress support of Israel. I don't know if you were inferring that Reform Jews are anti-zionist or not.


    the group you probably heard about is neturei karta. They are very vocal. They're also only one small group of ultra-orthodox Jews. There are many other ultra-orthodox Jews who do support Israel. Neturei Karta have no problem with Jews being in Israel. They just don't think we should be actively creating a country before the moshiach comes and re-establishes the Davidic dynasty.

    What makes them ultra-orthodox as opposed to just plain orthodox is that while Orthodox Jews treat halachah, all the rules, as law, ultra-orthodox Jews treat even minhag, custom, as law. That's why they often dress the way they do. They're dressing the way their ancestors dressed a few generations ago in Europe. They also sometimes rely more on their rabbi for making decisions, sometimes even for things that other people would see as outside of what a rabbi should be advising on like how to vote, than other orthodox jews who would be more likely to only consult their rabbi when they needed an expert to advise them on a difficult halachah. Although that will vary from group to group. They also sometimes treat the stories in the Talmud as literally true in every case, although that will vary from group to group and I think could apply to some other orthodox jews too.

    Judaism isn't monolithic. There's a lot of variety, even if we're only looking at Orthodox Judaism, even if we're only looking at ultra-orthodox Jews. What is not so mainstream about neturei karta is their view on the state of Israel, and more importantly the lengths to which they'll go to support that particular view. For more info on them you can go here:

    I want to emphasize this part of that article:

    And I will point out that haredi is another word for ultra-orthodox, hasidic Jews tend to be ultra-orthodox, and thus the group is being criticized by a good number of ultra-orthodox Jews in this letter.

    Hope that helps answer your questions.

  4. brownxfoot

    brownxfoot Member

    sorry Dauer, i knew all that i guess i didn't explain it well. thanks fr picking up the slack
  5. Duncan

    Duncan Senior Member

    I had always imagined that anti-Zionism was a faction of the anti-semitic set. When I met Jews who had no feelings for Israel, I felt very saddened. I don't welcome their opinions and I have become quite verbal about my opposition. I hold fast to the childish phrase, "If you have nothing nice to say, say nothing!" Some of these same anti-Zionist Jews have expressed concern for the so-called Palestinians. My response to this is, "Why not just send them to Syria, Lebanon, Jordan or Saudi Arabia. Surely they would feel more comfortable with their own kind."
  6. The_Moroccan_Raccoon

    The_Moroccan_Raccoon Senior Member

    I'm not an anti-Zionist Jew, but I believe that the means by which we are trying to "repair the world" and have Israel as our political homeland goes against what the Torah taught, and therefore is wrong. Through peace, and sharing the land with others, I believe in Zionism. But only if done in these ways, because its what God wants us to do...
  7. Duncan

    Duncan Senior Member

    I disagree with this wholeheartedly. Israel IS the only democratic country in the Middle East. America NEEDS this reliable form of government in that area and as such we as Americans should uphold the concepts of democracy that are practiced outside our boundaries.
    Torah does not teach us to "repair the world".
    And finally through peace and sharing the land with others we find ourselves homeless at best and decimated at worst. We are not writing about friendly neighbors here.
    SORRY... but in my opinoin it just ain't gonna work.
  8. teh-horace

    teh-horace for your pleasure

    that part makes sense
  9. SilverClover14

    SilverClover14 Senior Member

    I find Zionism to be the most anti-Jewish thing I know of. It's more dangerous to Judaism than the anti-Semites because it makes so many Jews hold Israel above their morals. If land is more important than the ideals that make that land special, then the land means nothing, which is why Israel means nothing to me.

    Why should I feel something for a country which policies continously let me down and further move away from the Judaism I know? You say that the Palestinians should go to one of the other Arab countries. That's just like saying the Israelis should move to the US or UK or Australia because that's where they're wanted. Until Israel lives up to its promise, I will never support it.
  10. jonny2mad

    jonny2mad Senior Member

    really the people who are against isreal should look at the conditions of minoritys before isreal .
    they should also read up on dhimmitude, the apartied system that groups like hamas and hezbollah want to bring back where jews and christians were often beaten or killed if they didnt pay protection money and had to live as secondclass citizens .

    there is a talk ..the talk is the one at the bottom of the page by andrew bostom the author of legacy of jihad to the Heritage Foundation.

    its not just about isreal but gives something of the history of jihad against isreal ,its very interesting to watch and shows whats likely to happen if isreal stops existing .
  11. campbell34

    campbell34 Banned

    According to the Old Testament, God stated that He would bring the Jews back to Israel in the latter days. God stated that when He would do this, many nations would rise up against Israel to destroy her. These nations would be at Israels door and the Jews would know that all is lost, and then at the last minute, God would show His hand once more, and destroy the envading armies. He then would reveal to the Jewish people, who He is. Also, many nations around the world would then see the power of God and believe. The Islamic nations are not aware that God has prepared a trap for them. In the days ahead they will rise up againts the State Israel in vast numbers, yet, they will soon discover, they will experience the same problems the Pharoah faced at the Red Sea crossing. Soon, the God of the Bible will be entering into the affairs of men as He did in ancient times.
  12. campbell34

    campbell34 Banned

    First I would point out that the Arab nations tossed out 900,000 Jews from their countries. Yet I don't here anyone telling the Arab nations that they have to return the land and money back to those Jews. Second, Scripture makes it clear that God gave that land to the the Jews, and God's promises are forever. Third, God states in the Old Testament that in the latter days He would allow His people to return to Israel, but not for their sakes. God tells us they defiled His name where ever the Jew wandered. He also tells us the reason He will return them to their own land is to get the other nations so angry, that they will try and destroy Israel and the Jews. When this happens and at the very last minute, God will rise up and destroy this massive invading army, and then He will reveal to the Jews, and the world, who He is.
  13. Campell, you said God would rise up. Is he reclining? If Israel is destined to be owned by the jews, why do they need so much american money funding their racist military. America is pretty sweet, but greater than God? Man, judaism is messed up.
  14. the dauer

    the dauer Member


    First, Campbell is not Jewish and does not in any way shape or form speak for Judaism. Even a Jewish person could not in fact speak for all of Judaism because it's a very diverse religion. Second, Israel is not Judaism, and the Israeli gov't does not speak for Judaism. And like most governments its actions don't always really reflect the ideals and intentions of the people all the time either. As an Iraqi I'm sure you understand what it's like to have a government that doesn't always behave the way its citizens would want.
  15. xexon

    xexon Destroyer Of Worlds

  16. dauer

    dauer Member


    it's rarely good education to link to the websites of vocal minorities known for spouting propaganda. It would be better to link to sites by others about them, for example:

    and if you scroll to the bottom you'll see a number of links for, against, and neutral regarding NK.

    dauer (formerly the_dauer until I lost and could not retreive my pw.)
  17. xexon

    xexon Destroyer Of Worlds

    Do you dispute the fact that political zionism was unknown until the late 1800's?

    Jews did just fine without it for several thousand years. This movement is nothing but jewish extremism. Modern Israel was born out of this diseased womb. It's a bastard child, with no Godly deed to claims of land in Palestine.

    Israel will NEVER know peace. Because it's not the real Israel.

    The only thing holding it together now is the United States, not God. There is no other country that represents the Satanic ideal more than the United States.

    You two were made for each other. And you will reap what you have sown soon enough.

  18. dauer

    dauer Member

    And hasidism was unknown until the Besht came onto the scene. That doesn't mean it's not Jewish. Judaism is by its very nature an evolving religion. It changes in response to new ideas, new information, new situations. Even those extremists you like who go around calling themselves the authentic Jews, all of that clothing that so many stereotypically identify with Judaism, and the peyos, all of that is new stuff that came about in Europe.

    Hey, you're talking to an agnostic. And not all zionism is the same. The fact of the matter is that we've got a whole bunch of Jews living in the state of Israel now. I've got no love for the government or for the extremists on either side, but for the people, Palestinian and Israeli, of course I care about them.

    I don't even know what that means. Israel really is Israel. It's not the same Israel as Ancient Israel, but there aren't a lot of Jews claiming it is. Even those who want it to be, they'll lament that the government isn't theocratic enough, and hope that the moshiach will come soon to bring back the Davidic monarchy. It's not that their being against zionism is a problem. It's the extremist stance they take about it. There are people on the right and left who have issues with zionism.

    What's G!d got to do with it, or are you assuming that because I'm against an extremist organization that I must be a religious zionist?

    Who are we two? I'm not fond of the gov'ts of Israel or the US.
  19. xexon

    xexon Destroyer Of Worlds

    The direction Israel has taken was in effect long before you were born. I don't blame individuals for it, including you.

    Political zionism is parasite upon both jews and judaism. It requires a host body, as it's harse ideology cannot stand on it's own. It uses both to advance it's own cause, which is just old fashioned power tripping. The current leadership of Israel has another agenda that most people don't know about just yet.

    You must remember that in the early days of nazism, it was considered to be a good thing for the German people, as it preyed upon their patriotic nature and bolstered the pride they had in themselves.

    It did so at a terrible price to other people.

    Israel is attempting to clear out a buffer zone around itself. The Palestinians are in the way, as are the rest of the arab world. Through intense lobbying by such zionist groups as AIPAC, they now have a considerable voice in US policies concerning the Middle East.

    The US happens to have the most powerful military in the world. This military is now serving a private agenda that has nothing to do with what's in the best interest of US citizens.

    Political zionism is now very close to fullfilling it's goals. With the help of Christian zionist sympathizers in the US, they have control in Washington over many things. Christian zionists feel they have to protect the "holy land". Israeli zionists insure thats what they keep on thinking. But in reality, they are only protecting the zionist nest, and not Israel itself.

    The zionists intend to drive out of Israel any Islamic influence. This will peak when the temple is rebuilt. When you see the destruction of the Dome of the Rock on the temple mount, know that the end of the world as you know it is near.

    A war is coming. In the aftermath of this war, zionism intends to install a one world government on the broken and weakened populations that survive it.

    The nazis tried to take over the world too.

    The only thing standing in the way of zionism is the Arab world, and they are under attack.

    Careful who you support, as things are not what they seem.

  20. dauer

    dauer Member


    at first I took you seriously, but now I can see you're just a conspiracy theorist. *shrugs* Conspiracy theorists come in all shapes and sizes.

    It also doesn't sound like you really heard what I said about who I support. There are some nutty groups in Israel with ideas that go along with yours, like the Kahanists who have ties with the Temple Institute, but they're just a crazy minority. I think the real fuel for groups like that aren't so much Jews, but fundamentalist Christians looking forward to the rapture.

    I don't really see an attempt to remove all arab influence in Israel. There are popular arabic words in modern Hebrew. World music that comes out of Israel is often very influenced by other middle eastern melodies, including those of Muslim prayer (a musical group I'm fond of, 'eden mi qedem, has lyrics in hebrew, arabic and English, and their pronunciation of Hebrew is influenced by arabic pronunciation.) Israel may be a Western nation, but it's also very much a ME nation. Pass the falafel! :D

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