Jesus was sold out

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by Ladylocks, Jan 3, 2005.

  1. Ladylocks

    Ladylocks Banned

    Interesting how Jesus was popular for healing the sick and hungry etc. But when he was put on trial and crucified, did any of these people come to his aid? Did any of his diciples who claimed they would never leave him, come to his aid? No.

    He was made a martyr and people loved him once he was dead, cuz it was convenient for them. They never had to sacrifice their lives to pay lipservice to him.
     
  2. mysweetisrael

    mysweetisrael Member

    He told the apostles what would happen to him, and they weren't supposed to interfere.

    It is kinda surprising, though, that there appears to've been no attempted rescues by other followers. I think that's an interesting point. I guess they were too afraid to defy the authorities. Maybe he or God used their powers to quell the thoughts of rescue in the minds of his followers.
     
  3. Archemetis

    Archemetis Senior Member

    wouldnt that be a violation of free will?
     
  4. thumontico

    thumontico Member

    Free will exists despite God's omniscience... it doesn't matter, God does what he wants. Some how.
     
  5. BlackGuardXIII

    BlackGuardXIII fera festiva

    What if the sop that was held up to Him immediately prior to His last words contained a narcotic substance? He was not on the cross long, and since His legs were not broken to hasten His demise, His 'death' came more quickly than would be expected. The tomb was empty, and the disciples saw Him, in the flesh, later on.
    The Essenes were known herbalists, who knew the effects of many plant extracts. The idea that they put a strong anaesthetic substance on the sop, then negotiated an early removal of His body from the cross, is not that crazy.
    Is it possible that maybe they did save Him?
     
  6. TrippinBTM

    TrippinBTM Ramblin' Man

    Funny, the Savior needing to be saved. How ironic! haha
     
  7. atropine

    atropine Member

    thats what i was gonna say...

    im with BG here.. although im not too sure obviously
     
  8. BlackGuardXIII

    BlackGuardXIII fera festiva

    I am happy to hear that, atropine. I am by no means sure either, just trying to make the pieces of the puzzle fit together as best I can. I believe this scenario more than others, but it is only belief.
    Obviously, same as you, I don't have any illusions of knowing the facts about things that may or may not have happened 2 millenia before I was born.
     
  9. arlia

    arlia Members

    what about wen paul cut off the ear of a roman soilder.........
    the thing is,jesus suffered rejection like all of us have in our lives,that makes him relevant to us,we can often say god its all very well you being up there,its ok for you you dont know wot im going through,jesus went through this so that he could know exactly what you a re going through
     
  10. Alsharad

    Alsharad Member

    No, they didn't. But then again, look at it from their point of view. They belived that the messiah's time had come. He had come to claim the world. It is entirely possible that the idea of the Messiah coming to die never even entered their minds. The messiah is pictured as a conquering king, and that seems to be what most people expected. So, why didn't they come to his aid? Possibly because what was happening to Christ countered what they expected and it caused great doubt and concern. In their minds, the Messiah wasn't supposed to be publicly humiliated and executed, He was supposed to rule the world. Christ's execution probably caused more than a little doubt in His followers.

    Well, until His ressurrection. Then they ALL died for it. Executed and martyred, exery one save John. John was exiled to Patmos for the rest of his life separated from family and friends.

    Last I checked, sour wine is not a narcotic. Wine mixed with myhrr is an analgesic, but not necessarily a narcotic in the sense you seem to mean. But the sour wine was given to Him by the Romans. This was the common sour wine (posea) daily made use of by the Roman soldiers. They gave it to Christ, not in derision, but from compassion, to assuage his thirst. The idea that the Essenes somehow spiked Roman drink is a pretty tall order, since I imagine that doing so, if caught, could have had disastrous results for the entire Essene order.

    Don't forget this though:
    Apparently to make doubly sure of death, the legionnaire drove his lance through the fifth interspace between the ribs, upward through the pericardium and into the heart. The 34th verse of the 19th chapter of the Gospel according to St. John reports: "And immediately there came out blood and water." That is, there was an escape of water fluid from the sac surrounding the heart, giving postmortem evidence that Our Lord died not the usual crucifixion death by suffocation, but of heart failure (a broken heart) due to shock and constriction of the heart by fluid in the pericardium.

    Master herbalists may be able to do wonders with healing, but fixing a punctured heart would require nothing less than a miracle.

    And even then, you would have to be able to prove that Jesus was an Essene. Possible? I suppose. But if He was an Essene, He wasn't a very good one. Look at the contradictions to Essene teachings that Jesus taught:


    1. There is "heavy emphasis on the punctilious observance of the Mosaic Law" at Qumran, versus the "peripheral importance" in the Gospels. This alone, Vermes tells us, makes a linear descent seem "extremely improbable". Schubert notes for example that though Jesus allowed life-saving rescue on the Sabbath, the Essenes forbade it "if any instrument was required" to do it. Essenes were more fanatical about the Sabbath than the Pharisees Jesus rebuked!
    2. The Qumranites expected a restoration of Temple worship. Christians expected the Temple to be destroyed, to be replaced by God and Jesus and a Jerusalem with no Temple. Given the Temple's central role in Judaism, this difference is itself monumental.
    3. Celibacy was compulsory for most Essenes, but only a limited ideal for some in the Christian movement. For Essenes celibacy was a matter of ritual purity, but for Jesus, a goal for those who would serve in the Kingdom wholeheartedly.
    4. The Essenes would not engage in controversy with outsiders. In contrast Christ was a missionary faith in constant conversation with outsiders.
    5. Related to this, Christ welcomed sinners and the unrighteous to repent while at Qumran there "rested elements of intolerance, rigidity and exclusiveness." Christ purified the sinner; the Essenes avoided the sinner.
    6. Jesus taught live for enemies. The Qumranites taught hatred for enemies, which was tied in to their view of the vengeance of God on their enemies.
    7. Christians baptized once and for all; the Qumranites took repeated lustrations for purity.
    8. The Essenes apparently believed in two Messiahs, one priestly, the other Davidic. In Christianity Jesus was seen as filling both roles (cf. Hebrews). A worthy side note on this topic is that the Essenes expected messianic salvation to be revealed in the wilderness -- in direct opposition to Jesus' warning to not follow anyone who claims that that is where the Messiah will be found. The only clear role the Essenes assigned to their Messiahs was to preside at the communal meal. There is no indication of atonement for sins.
    9. Jesus repudiates any idea that his followers will conduct a physical war to begin the Kingdom, whereas Qumranites saw a war as the instigation, with angels fighting on their side.
    There is more, but some of those differences are monumental enough that it can reasonably be contended that Christ was NOT an Essene (or at best, a rogue Essene).

    As such, why would the Essenes be motivated to help (or save) Christ? He doesn't even fit the idea of the Messiah that Essenes supported. Is the idea that Christ was saved crazy? No, but it requires reliance on events for which we have no evidence (the Essenes negotiating an early removal, for example). It is much more reasonable to believe the events as recorded than to make assumptions and prepositions that smack of conspiracy theory.
     
  11. BlackGuardXIII

    BlackGuardXIII fera festiva

    Alsharad, I need to know where you have read that it was the Romans that put the sop to His lips. My KJAV seems to imply it was a disciple, though it is not clear who did it. Also, you describe the spear piercing very specifically and in detail, whereas my bible just says it pierced His side, with no mention of 5th vertebrae or pericardium, etc. Where is this info?

    I would very much like to read it.
    Regarding the Essene reference, I am no expert on Essene particulars, and admit that I was only repeating a oft read postulation. I have also read that He was possibly a Nazorean, since the reference to Jesus of Nazareth is interesting considering the maps of the day showed no such city. It was another half millenium before it appears on maps of the region.
    The Essene writings I have read are very different than what you describe, and are very loving and kind, not hateful like what you have read.
     
  12. campbell34

    campbell34 Banned

    Well if you want to make up stories you can, but the bible states, that soldiers were mocking Him, and as a joke gave Him vinegar. The reason Jesus bones were not broken was the soldier who's job it was to do that could see that Christ was already dead, and just pierced his side with a spear, and then the scriptures state that both blood and water came flowing out of Him. Even that act of the soldier, fullfilled a prophecy in the book of Psalms chapter 34 verse 20. And this prophecy was writen hundres of years before Christ was even on earth. It reads. "A bone of Him shall not be broken.
     
  13. campbell34

    campbell34 Banned

    Luke:23:36,37 And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering him vinegar, And saying, if thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself.
     
  14. JesusDiedForU

    JesusDiedForU Banned

    Christ came to earth knowing all the time that He would have to die for the sins of the world. His death was predicted in the Old testament, and even His rejection by the Jews.
     
  15. arlia

    arlia Members

    jesus had an army of nagels waiting for his call to save him,if he so wished,but he knew waht his purpose was,to save mankind
     
  16. gnrm23

    gnrm23 Senior Member

    nazareth...

    notsrim
    nazorean
    nazarite

    there is a hebrew/aramaic word with those consonants meaning "the pure ones"...

    it is not imposible for there to be a connection between the essene community at qumran (who required withdrawal from temple worship in jerusalem & set up a desert commune) & the followers of jesus (& an even stronger possible link between john the baptist & the essenes!)...

    and probably ~3 of the apostolic band were at one time members of the zealots (sicarii) who advocated violent revolution against the romans & their puppet, herod)

    ~

    (& at the masada fortress, ~ 30 years after the events of jesus' passion, it seems that some the zealots & the essenes forged a link prior to the final siege there)

    ~
    ~
    ~

    further afield - yes, the sufis (who claim jesus as one of their own) state that he was removed from the cross & nursed back to health far from the authorities at jerusalem...

    and there are some who witness that there is a gravestone in northern india engraved in sanskrit & aramaic(!), describing a holy one named "issa" who died & was buried there a little over 1900 years ago...




    ymmv...
     
  17. Alsharad

    Alsharad Member

    http://www.konnections.com/Kcundick/crucifix.html
    http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/jdtabor/crucifixion.html
    http://www.apu.edu/infocus/2002/03/crucifixion/

    While these differ a bit (specifically on the HOW of Jesus' death), they all seem to agree on the effects of crucifixion on the body and, susequently, the spear piercing the side.

    The entire article is here:
    http://www.tektonics.org/af/essene.html

    I don't know that much about Essene teachings either, but the article has very good (and documented points). Still, the idea that Christ was an Essene is postulated but several Christian and Essene scholars seem to disagree or at least seriously doubt the possibility.
     
  18. BlackGuardXIII

    BlackGuardXIII fera festiva

    Thanks, I have since read all 4 gospel accounts of the sop. Besides the sour wine, Myrrh, (an analgesic, seems like a sympathetic gesture to ease pain, and is not a logical addition if mockery was the motive.) is included in one account, gall in another, and whether the offer to drink was refused or accepted is another point where the accounts do not. Maybe 'synoptic' is not the best adjective to describe the gospels.
     
  19. BlackGuardXIII

    BlackGuardXIII fera festiva

    I have read many similar accounts, and the idea that He did not die on the cross, but another did so in his place, is a common Muslim belief. From my studies anyway.

    I also read that the term used to describe the group of Roman soldiers that came and arrested Him is a very specific Roman military designation meaning 600 soldiers. That makes me wonder if the Romans viewed His group as a real, military threat.

    Some Orthodox paintings show two babies in the nativity scene, and Thomas Didymus, meaning 'twin twin', is the most commonly proposed brother. He is also a common suggestion for the one crucified in his place.
    In France there is a mountain called 'Cordieu', which is not far from the location of the tomb of Mary Magdalene, and also not too far from Rennes Les Chateau.

    Some think that the mountains name is a reference to the 'Corps Dieu', or 'body of God', and that He is interred there.

    It is all interesting to me.
     
  20. BlackGuardXIII

    BlackGuardXIII fera festiva

    I meant where in the Bible did you get that info. I don't really care what those websites are selling. I am not buying.
    sorry, but thanks for answering my question anyway.
     

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