I recently come a cross two greek writers accounts of Jesus and Christianity. Celsus' "True Doctrine" and Tacitus' "Annals". These writings are from the same time period (between the first and second century) as the books of the bible. The thing thats different about these is that they clearly have a disdain for Jesus and christianity. Celsus claims that jesus is the product of an affair with a Roman soldier and that Jesus ' miracles are Egyptian magic. Is this proof that Jesus was a real person and not just a mythical figure?
And these two people had the gaul to show at isaac's house party for happy rastafarians. www.cnn.com/2011/US/05/30/florida.jellyfish/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnn
How very interesting, jill. Even tho' I feel that one will ultimately have to take that "leap of faith", so to say, if one truly believes there was Jesus, how could this be anything but proof?! And as far as regarding the claim that Jesus is the product of an affair...well, of course Jesus would not be given the same reverence and honor in all writings - just as He is not given such here at hf. Being born of a virgin, even tho' she was married to Joseph at the time of Jesus's birth, this writing just shows that gossip goes as far back as recorded history..as far as the Egyptian magic - (LOL) - even the magicians of the pharohs of Egypt could not match the "tricks"/power of Jesus's God. In OT times, they would at times have quite the official battle...and you got one guess as to who "won" each time, as recorded in the Bible. However, these ancient writings do reflect that not only was there a Jesus, but that there was power associated with him. Thanks for the post.
Jesus was possibly one the first Chemists, maybe knowledge from a higher power. Or just an Intelligent man.... As the Egyptians also had powers attributed to the Elements= also highly intelligent. :sunny: There are others.. As well we may never know what and if Jesus contributed anything to science because they we're against Him .. Jābir states in his Book of Stones (4:12) that "The purpose is to baffle and lead into error everyone except those whom God loves and provides for" 3. Another evidence used by Islamic scholars is the hadith narrated by Jabir Ibn Abdullah/ NOT the same Jabir ibn Hayyān/ which says, "Anyone who denies Mahdi's coming has denied what was revealed to Prophet Mohammed (may God bless him and grant him peace). Anyone who rejects Prophet Jesus' (pbuh), son of Maryam, coming has become a disbeliever. Anyone who does not accept Dajjal's appearance has also become a disbeliever." \ Science its worth believing in.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sidGedI5LMo"]YouTube - Jabir Ibn Hayyan Part 1‏
ok, I wish I understood/was familiar with anything below your 2nd paragraph...and really usually I don't reply back because I don't care what somebody thinks. j/k But in your case, I found what you said very interesting...and bottom line:Even you believe there "was" a Jesus. Right? The 1st chemist. Facinating. :2thumbsup:
I struggle with many beliefs.... But I do believe in Jesus and Allah or Jehovah.. whether this will effect my after life , or current life. I dont know.. Sometimes I get pissed off and angry at GOD.. but there is something deep in my soul.. It hasnt come from drugs, tripping, or whatever... The Bible is fucked im sure of that.. There is much more to both: The Christian and Islamic religions that we as people could never understand and only try to obtain ... Its easy to pray and give GOD thanks and praise. Even after the worst of all disasters, traumatic events like hurricane, tornados ect.. We as a people can not blame GOD or Jesus for these event.. We have not treated the earth with any respect. WE can not expect our creators to truly love us till we show love to all things. Even a pencil deserves the love of man. A tree has perished for you to Write a love letter, a legal document,, ect.. And yet it has become disposable... If everything before man is disposable .. Why then shouldn't the Creator/s view mankind as disposable as well.... We were intended to live forever and ever. Its almost impossible to think or believe your soul or living being now could be if not as old as the universe itself.. Timeless or timelessness =however you view it. there always need be a starting point.. Creators figured this out to make continuum.. Although we are not aware of the passing from life to life Some of us can... Ultimate truth is the sum state of all that is, has been, and ever will be. Ultimate truth is inaccessible until the story is over, and even then there will be different interpretations. sorry off topic a bit. Im drunk.. The following signs are ascribed to Ali in the coming of Dajja < false prophets.. People will stop offering the prayers Dishonesty will be the way of life Falsehood will become a virtue People will mortgage their faith for worldly gains Usury and bribery will become legitimate Imbeciles would rule over the wise Blood of innocents would be shed Books about the quote "As a man thinketh" Pride will be taken on acts of oppression The rulers will be corrupt The scholars will be hypocrites Adultery will be rampant The liars and treacherous will be respected There will be acute famine at the time There will be no shame amongst people Children would challenge their mothers Youngsters would perform marital relationship with their parents Many people would worship Satan There would be no respect for elder people
have never had a problem with jesus the person much like scratcho the person when they become 'gods' is when i say no
Thank you very much for that last post orison. Those signs are especially interesting...and I see that we are getting closer and closer to that list being a description of "everyday times".
Much of what's been posted so far seems to be less concerned with whether or not Jesus existed than with whether or not he was what his followers said he was. Celsus accuses him of practicing Egyptian magic. Did He? Does Egyptian magic work? Celsus' accusation that he was fathered by a Roman soldier was also made by Jewish sources, but of course all of them would have a vested interest in discrediting Jesus (and virgin birth is admittedly hard to believe). Celsus didn't doubt the possibility of virgin birth. He accepted that Caesar Augustus was born of a virgin. He just doubted that a Galilean carpenter could have had such a miraculous origin. More generally, he doubted anything Christians said because they were riffraff and women. If we dismiss the New Testament, sources for Jesus are admittely sparse. We have Roman sources, but they could be just relying on the Christian accounts. We have the Jewish historian Josephus, but his account is thought to be a forgery. We have the Babylonian Talmud's account of the trial of Yeshu ha'Notzri (Jesus of Nazarath) for practicing magic and leading the people of Israel astray, but it's not clear that this is the same Jesus. I'm convinced by the existence of Peter, Paul and James, the brother of Jesus, whose existence is well established. Paul saw Jesus only in a vision, but he was in contact with the others, who claimed close direct association with Jesus. Sure they could have made Jesus up, but that seems to me to be implausible. Surely others who were around at the time would have noticed. And the Jesus they came up with would probably have been more like the expected Messiah than a poor carpenter who got crucified like a common criminal. Ordinarily, the existence of one's brother is pretty good evidence of one's own existence.
No, Jesus was a real person and there is no need for these accounts which are not of the same time period as the books of the Bible. No Bible books were written after 100 BCE.
In Matthew, the lineage of Jesus is traced all the way back to Abraham, on Joseph's side, which would be absurd if Jesus was not Joseph's son. Then this statement, which would be a even more absurd if Jesus was not Joseph's son. So, yes Jesus was a real person, and he was the son of Joseph. Did he practice Egyptian Magic? Perhaps. It wouldn't say anything bad of him if he did, nothing wrong with it. Carpenters at the time were likely fairly rich, being highly skilled people, and carpentry was one of the most advanced sciences of the time. So likely, Jesus' family was fairly well off. Tony
I came across this website while looking for something else. http://www.thedevineevidence.com/jesus_historicity.html It seems well reasoned and well documented with references.
