Is American flag culture bad?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by unfocusedanakin, Jul 6, 2020.

  1. unfocusedanakin

    unfocusedanakin The Archaic Revival Lifetime Supporter

    Do you think it's odd that we have little kids literately stand everyday and pledge allegiance to a flag for example? I did and I never really understood what I was saying. It continues to be awkward at sporting events when it's just unspoken you stand for the anthem.

    Or what about all the rules you have to follow? I was a Boy Scout so we covered flag code. On that topic I notice A LOT of right wing people breaking it. The same people who are so mad over kneeling are doing things like placing their ass on a the flag because it's the pattern of their shorts. They wipe their faces with it because it's on the napkin at the 4th of July BBQ. So maybe their opinions on kneeling are not really because of the flag code.

    Somehow even burning it means the magic cloth can not freedom. It all seems like an odd focus on a meaningless symbol over an idea. The same kind of thinking that goes into other debates as well. I've noticed people's opinion on the flag goes hand in hand with other topics. Right wing people worship the cloth itself. Left wing people respect the idea of what the flag is supposed to mean for people and challenge that which it does not do.

    You only see flags in other countries when it's the World Cup or someone wins a Olympic medal. Maybe because of that there is not much debate over things like flag burning. It's freedom of speech, odd freedom of speech but there is no reason to worry about it.

    How does what anyone does or does not do during the anthem or in school affect you? It does not and to have a truly free country we would get past this nationalistic thinking. China and Walmart also demand people pledge their loyalty with constant praise to the party. There is no point to question anything and the ultimate disrespect is not love your situation. Do we really want to be like them?
    Eric!, Flagme15 and FritzDaKatx2 like this.
  2. 6-eyed shaman

    6-eyed shaman Sock-eye salmon

    I've been to other countries and they fly their flags with just as much, if not even greater pride than the USA.

    I think you have the right to burn literally any flag you want (not exclusively the USA flag either), just as long as it is a flag that belongs to you, and not someone else. Because that's vandalism.

    Personally though, I think burning and desecrating a flag is disrespectful to those who've devoted their lives to building and improving the country, so the burner can have that freedom.

    I strongly believe the pledge of allegiance should be banned from classroom curriculum. As it was written by a 19th century Christian socialist named Francis Bellamy. Who wanted to exploit the US flag as a form of national socialism. The pledge of allegiance also promotes jingoism. You don't stand by your country's government no matter what; if they are doing something wrong. Speak up! The founding fathers would not have approved of any indoctrination like the pledge of allegiance.

    On the other hand I find it saddening that half the country is losing respect for the flag as a whole. I'm sad that some people are beginning to see Old Glory as a right wing symbol, when it actually represents the country's past, present, future, and all its inhabitants. As does every country's flag.
    Eric! likes this.
  3. GloomyCloud

    GloomyCloud Members

    I don't think it's odd at all. I think it's a way that we give thanks to those who died to give us freedom, to let them know we will preserve it, and that they and their actions will not be forgotten.

    I agree with this - You Must Know Why the Pledge of Allegiance is SO Important - Historyplex

    The Pledge of Allegiance, written in 1892 is an oath or symbol of loyalty of the Americans towards their flag and country.

    Pledge of Allegiance to the United States flag, is a promise or oath of loyalty to the Republic of United States of America. The Pledge was originally written in August, 1892 by an American Baptist minister and social activist, Francis Bellamy.

    I pledge allegiance – I promise to be true

    to the flag – to the symbol of our country

    of the United States of America – each state that has joined to make our country

    and to the Republic – a republic is a country where the people choose their representatives, to make laws for them, that is the government is for the people

    for which it stands – the flag, meaning the country

    one nation – a single nation

    under God – the people believe in a supreme being

    indivisible – the country cannot be split into parts

    with liberty and justice – with freedom and fairness

    for all – for each person in the country, you and me!

    By reciting the Pledge of Allegiance, every American promises to be true to the United States of America. The freedom available will not be taken for granted and each American will remember the countless men, women and children who have given their lives through the centuries, so that they can live peacefully today.
    Eric! likes this.
  4. unfocusedanakin

    unfocusedanakin The Archaic Revival Lifetime Supporter


    Even saying under god is an infringement on some people's religion. Evangelicals are so quick to label atheism as a religion and asking the child of an atheist to say under god is like asking a Christian to say under Allah. If there is a separation of church and state and freedom of religion. I'm just being picky.

    Only the USA and dictatorships obsesses this much over glorious war victorious and constant devotion to the country. I appreciate the military history when it was needed though.But that's sort of the problem the whole flag culture is built around war. It never ends because the freedom takers never stop. My whole life there has always been some war the US was in. The troops are never all home so if you don't stand you don't love America.
    Eric! likes this.
  5. GloomyCloud

    GloomyCloud Members

    Alrighty. I respect your opinion.
    Eric! likes this.
  6. sherman march

    sherman march Members

    when I was in high school way back in the 1960s, we always started each day by reciting the pledge of allegiance. except there was one girl in my class who never participated and always remained seated. one day she was absent from school and a student asked our teacher why she never participated in the pledge of allegiance ritual. she was a Jehovah's Witness. I never knew until that day that JWs do not vote, do not serve in the military, do not pledge loyalty to flags, do not stand up for the national anthem. Looking back, that was during the Vietnam War era and it was looked on as strongly unpatriotic to not be seen doing all the patriotic rituals expected of "loyal" Americans. It took a lot of guts to go against the crowd, especially in high school. JWs would not register for the draft and would not serve in the military, not just in the US but in all countries where they live. This is what got them in trouble with the Wilson administration during World War 1 and why Wilson became the first US president to jail US citizens because of their religious beliefs. Nazis in Germany under Hitler did the same thing. Jehovah's Witnesses were the only religious group other than Jews who were required by law to wear in public a badge to identify themselves specifically as JWs. Jews wore a yellow star, JWs wore a purple/lavender badge. JWs were also sent to concentration camps although few were actually killed there. They usually were required to work as house servants for the military officers. I am not a JW but most people today think of them as those people who knock on doors handing out pamphlets. But I believe that close to 99% of all American Christians today don't have the fortitude to have gone to jail for their religious beliefs like the JWs did in both World War 1 & 2, or risk public ridicule and contempt for not standing for the national anthem and pledge of allegiance. It wasn't until the 1950s that the Supreme Court ruled that they could not be jailed for refusing to register for the draft.
    Eric!, unfocusedanakin and scratcho like this.
  7. Eleven

    Eleven Member

    Throughout the 1800's and 1900's, Americans had a sense of mission, and they were right to have it. Most of the planet was ruled by royalty. No other nation had separation of church and state. Is anyone surprised it committed sins at the same time it brought some good to the world? I'm not. People are people.

    The New World needed to overtake and dominate the Old World and that is what happened in WWII. So we shouldn't say the Europeans should have stayed home.

    The USA was an outgrowth of the Protestant Reformation, which weakened the power of a hierarchical Roman Catholicism. In comparison, Baptists are anarchists. France and the USA introduced secular government to the world stage. Freemasonry valued religious freedom and diversity and played a big role in both revolutions.

    Thomas Jefferson saw in corporations, relatively new entities, a potential corrupter of democracy. Like we don't know it now.

    Many Americans have forgotten separation of church and state. The Democrats and teachers' unions don't talk about it, even when conservative religious groups aim to replace public education with religious K-12 schools. Schools that will be paid for by taxpayers, some of whom are defamed by the religious groups (gays, atheists, etc.)

    So, America has decayed, after fulfilling its mission to whoop the ass of the Old World. Rather than focus on its mistakes, better to renew the cause. F' business groups. F' the rich who corrupt politics. F' conservative churches that Jefferson would have hated.
    Flagme15 and scratcho like this.
  8. Eleven

    Eleven Member

    I do believe that Putin's Russia actively persecutes Jehovah's Witnesses, today.
  9. soulcompromise

    soulcompromise Member HipForums Supporter

    Since 9/11 it has taken on a new value in the mainstream I feel.

    It's almost like racists have used it to such an extent that it's become synonymous with shunning unwanted outgroups. I'm a little ashamed of it, and I know that shouldn't be... It's become a touchy subject imo.
    Eric! likes this.
  10. unfocusedanakin

    unfocusedanakin The Archaic Revival Lifetime Supporter

    Exactly why I am kind of uncomfortable with it. I'm American and happy to be so. I just don't want to look like one of those love it or leave it build the wall types. The people who see any criticism as disrespect when democracy is never being happy. No matter what you could always do something better so you use your freedom of speech to say something is wrong right now.

    Trump or Fox news are not going to say what we did wrong only why some other group is screwing up our perfect life. What they will do is get angry a NFL player does not stand for the anthem.
    Eric! and soulcompromise like this.
  11. Flagme15

    Flagme15 Members

    I agree.
  12. Flagme15

    Flagme15 Members

    The words "under god" were not added to the pledge until 1954. Eisenhower requested it so that "we" would be differentiated from communists.
    Eric!, Tishomingo and Eleven like this.
  13. themnax

    themnax Senior Member

    i believe anything, be it flag, an ideology, a belief, if it is allowed or enshrined to take precedence over the kind of world people have to actually experience living in,
    this not a good thing. of course the idea is to bring people together, to give them a common cause, but when that cause is to illogically and arbitrarily hate and oppose,
    some other equally arbitrary and nonsensical cause, this too is a very not good thing.
  14. Whatever cause can be used to detract from the real problems in society is important
    GloomyCloud likes this.
  15. I'minmyunderwear

    I'minmyunderwear voice of sexy

    does that still happen? over the last few years i've seen at least a thousand memes and comments about how the democrats made it so nobody gets to say the pledge of allegiance in school anymore.
  16. Eleven

    Eleven Member

    Not racists; billionaires. I believe the corporations that own the news want weak border enforcement, and manipulate us into accepting that by constant repetition of the meme that a border equals racism. While we all lock our doors at night, and don't allow just anyone to invite themselves to our backyard parties. Heck, communes don't allow people to just show up, and require the setting up of a visit.

    A Wikileaks cable exposed a US ambassador to Canada, a Republican appointee, longing for a North American Union, and stating his view it would have to brought in gradually, so as to not provoke public opposition.

    I found Michelle Malkin's book, "Open Borders, Inc." very informative. I didn't agree with it all, but I don't demand an author agree with me 100%.
  17. soulcompromise

    soulcompromise Member HipForums Supporter

    I guess I don't understand the endgame.

    And are you saying that progressive immigration policy is equivocal to "weak border enforcement"? Taking some liberties there IMO.

    I don't think anyone is setting out to malevolently "weaken" anything; particularly not our national security.
    granite45 likes this.
  18. unfocusedanakin

    unfocusedanakin The Archaic Revival Lifetime Supporter


    The flag is an emotion and a distraction from reality. Probably why when so many other important things happen the right wing relies on the feeling of the flag. Why does it matter if someone kneels compared to other things? Why is that the flag worshipers ignore the face that a Marine is the one who suggested the NFL kneel?

    The flag uses a classic marketing strategy. If you can make the customer feel like they are a "family" they might actuly feel bad for finding flaws in the product. Gee I feel bad I should not protest I mean America did some things right and I owe them is the same thinking as well the food was not good this time but man Roman was always there for me in college I kind of owe them.

    This is also why minimum wage works are a "team" and not employees. It makes them feel bad for having a union like the company has done them a favor. No one wants to fight with their grandma you just take the salary she gave you for mowing the lawn. Walmart wants to be your grandma.

    I have not been in school for several years but it did in my day. I would not be surprised if meaningless triubtes to cloth are a the hill the GOP dies on today.
  19. Tishomingo

    Tishomingo Members

    Gloomy, are you still with us? I had trouble finding some of your other posts.
  20. Tishomingo

    Tishomingo Members

    I don't think it's odd at all. Humans aren't completely rational animals (an understatement) and therefore respond to emotional appeals. Human survival depends not only on individual capabilities but on collective effort. E.O Wilson, evolutionary biologist, thinks our brains became modularized to accommodate these separate and sometimes competing interests of self and group. The group at the time was at least one that shared our DNA. In the course of human development, though, the units of group loyalty became larger and larger, today extending to the nation-state. Loyalty to a large unit like that, consisting of lots of individuals who don't share our DNA and may be radically different from us in appearance and culture, requires special conditioning. In a heterogeneous nation like the United State, this presents a special challenge.

    The flag is not just a piece of cloth, and is certainly not magic, but it is a symbol that stands for things we share in common and can be proud of. I'm sure this varies a lot from one group of Americans to another, but for many of us our special governmental institutions and traditions of liberty hold a special place of reverence. We "pledge allegiance to the flag and to the republic for which it stands.." The United States has the distinction of being the first republic since ancient Roman times. A republic is often defined as "representative democracy", but is more complex than that, consisting of an elaborate set of institutions to keep one subgroup from getting the better of others. Our pledge of allegiance also makes reference to "liberty and justice for all", which are often more aspirations than realities, but relatively speaking, provide a bill of rights (actually liberties) that many of us cherish, and "due process " and "equal protection" clauses in our constitution that provide vehicles for liberty and justice. I think we need to be reminded of these things often, and the flag and our salute to it provide the most efficient way of doing this. Those who don't understand the words of the pledge should learn them. It should be unspoken--a conditioned reflex--to stand for the anthem, and hopefully to sing it.

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