I'm cutting this from the other thread because my question on it is off topic: . Based on this, it sounds like ignorance is the cause of existance. Wouldn't it follow that knowledge (enlightenment) would cause nonexistance? That is to say, if one overcame their ignorance, wouldn't they cease to exist?
It depends on a number of things, what is your definition of: 1. Ignorance 2. Existence 3. Knowledge 4. Cause 5. Non-existence 6. and You.
"That is to say, if one overcame their ignorance, wouldn't they cease to exist?" really interesting question, what does the word "an meaningful/less answer" mean ? maybe could it be more like mindful or mindless Who knows? hehe
I would like to add one question of my own with Meagain's ... What do you consider perception? To itemize the 12-limbs of Dependent Origination: Ignorance Volitional Formations (Karma) Consciousness Name and Form (Mental and Physical formations) Six Base Senses (eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind) Contact Feeling Craving Clinging Becoming (Existence) Birth Death, sorrow, lamentation, despair ... suffering Note item 10 in reference with your question ... "Based on this, it sounds like ignorance is the cause of existance." Darrell
In my original quote by you, you said, basically, 1 causes 2 which causes 3 which causes 4 which causes 5 which causes 6 which causes 7 which causes 8 which causes 9 which causes 10. Stopping there, it seems the root cause of existence is ignorance. Either Buddhism makes very little sense, or I am missing something big. Thus this thread.
i thought that that was the point of buddhism, and one of the places where it diverges markedlyu from its "parent religion" hinduism... the buddha showed us the way to (eventually) avoid reincarnation into samasara (the wheel of death & rebirth)... & his death ~2500 years ago was not followed by a subsequent incarnation...
Trippy, You aren't missing something big, you are on to something big. DK has listed one of the Buddhist explainations for dependant origin. I am trying to get your definitions of the words I listed so that you think about what they mean as they have several meanings on several different levels. Buddhism can never be fully understood unless you traverse all its levels. Buddhism will be full of contridictions unless you explore all of its contradicts and reach the point of unification. (Having said that, I am only offering my understanding as I have no formal training in it at all.) Very slippery. Full of traps.
Well, first of all, I thought Buddhism was supposed to be simple, clear. Easy (though difficult in practice). Thats the way it's always presented anyways. As far as my definitions go, I don't know. Especially for 1, 2, and 3, which are pretty hard to understand. I still have no idea how to define consciousness, and ignorance is almost as hard...probably because I'm ignorant! haha. I'm still musing over your first reply; it will take some thought before I can muddle my way through this, if ever I can. By the way, how can sense organs, contact, or really any of those things occur before "becoming (existance)" or "birth"? And DK, are you trying to say Buddhism makes no sense?
LOL, well that's good! It is.... so simple, so clear...so hard to grasp. A pane of glass is simple and clear, yet the clearer it is the harder to see! I don't have alot of time now..I'll have more to say later.
Without looking all this up, let me attempt to explain...sorta on the fly as I think about it.... Ignorance is the ignoring, or failure to recognize, that all matter, etc. is dependantly originating. That is, everything depends upon everything else for its existence. Nothing can exist on its own, in a vacuum. Everything is connected. When this is ignored, suffering arrises as we do not see that all opposites are the extreme ends of the same middle ground. So when we experience pain we ignore the fact that pain could not be recognized without pleasure. And vise versa. We suffer as we strive to only experience pleasure without its complement, pain. We do not nessacarily eliminate pain, we realize that it is a part of human existence and so lessen its impact. The habit of continual ignore-ance of dependant origination leads to a habit of ignore-ance of dependant origination and birth and death take place as we ignore the interdependant relation of the two. The formation of this ignorance habit causes one to mistake the habit itself as a seperate enity. An ego. An individual that exists as an independant object. It is then a simple step to identifying everything else as something else. Seperate. Not dependantly originating. There is you...and everything else. Identiyfing these "seperate" objects as seperate things leads to classification based upon what the body can perceive. The divison of one object from another is called smell, or sight, or feel, etc. Then finer divisons occur. What you must remember is that this list is not linear. We do not start at the top and work our way to the bottom. Each item should be viewed as a spoke on a wheel. So the six senses produce contact and contact produces the six senses. Each item is equal and occuring at the same time. (As there is no linear time). As the wheel spins each spoke is activated leading to the next spoke. The wheel is spinning constantly so it dosen't matter which spoke you start at. We see seperate things, independant from ourselves and project qualities of ourselves to them. In reality everything is united, but in our ignorance we "judge". Things are good or bad. We like or dislike. Good feelings cause craving for more good feelings as, again, we forget the opposite and compliment is bad feelings. And the other way round. So here we go let's keep the good and get rid of the bad. We have forgotton dependant origination. Remember, there is no before, this all takes place now, not in the past, you are spinning on the wheel as you read this. Watch the spokes fly by, too fast to see, to quick to count; which one passes first, which one last? A blur of life.
Nice one Remember the way the moment is going on in you when understanding, that u maybe got What did you thought that was existing? Trippin , Read carefuly again and see what darrellkitchen pointed out since the every beginning TrippinBTM: "As far as my definitions go, I don't know. Especially for 1, 2, and 3, which are pretty hard to understand. I still have no idea how to define consciousness, and ignorance is almost as hard...probably because I'm ignorant! haha. I'm still musing over your first reply; it will take some thought before I can muddle my way through this, if ever I can. By the way, how can sense organs, contact, or really any of those things occur before "becoming (existance)" or "birth"? And DK, are you trying to say Buddhism makes no sense?" One could decline the meaning of Buddhism as the end of your conscious (all what is told "by" you, "in" you and maybe sometimes out) state, to reach something more... um, let say creative. It is an other relationship with what people define as Karma. U know what that wheel is? What DK showed, if I may, was making sense since very beginnin, because most of Buddhists (or those who are used to that kind of thoughts about non-thought) know what the goal is (hopefully ) But to achieve, if there is an achievement, is different There is a french movie who says: "What matters is not the fall, but the landing." Focus on the fall, that s all we got You are it Be Trippin, u dont need clear definitions, that will anyway become false, to be. Did u got something? ah ah
ignorance does not equate to 'the wrong view' it means to do or think things that have implications you dont know. ignorance technically can be a good thing but is usually a bad thing. but it doesnt mean how correct someones oppinion is, but it is usually the root of bad oppinions, but in the end, oppinion is also based on emotion and feeling and also how much someone is able to know. ignorance often equates to what media the person is subjected to in our 'world' because we have heaps of information avaiable. but if someone never had the opportunity to know the thing they are ignorant about would you call them ignorant? theyre not ignoring anything? but theyd have the wrong oppinion. think, child in africa.
and so we need to raise awareness of oppinion (instead of awareness of fact, which is the conservative way) to combat ignorance in the world however, who knows if ignorance is something humans have because its necessary? almost all the least ignorant people have become great but dangerously opposed icons for ideals. but ignorant people make the world turn around
