I was talking to some people about the bible

But the Bible doesn't say that anywhere.
That was a restriction from old testament law and Christians are not held accountable for the old Mosaic law, that was the point behind the all the crucifixion and stuff.

You see TNS, it's things like that that cause me to not take any arguments such as you are putting forth seriously because it is obvious that you are not going by the actual Bible but, like many, many others, are just going by the popular, stereotypical, Hollywood version of what people think the Bible teaches rather than taking the time to investigate it and find out what the Bible ACTUALLY teaches.

 

Quoted for truth and emphasis.

I also find it curious how certain atheists focus on the genesis story of creation and Adam and Eve and rub it into christian faces that they are so wrong being christian because evolution proof those things to be untrue while many people that actually have faith in a christian god do not deny evolution at all (nor are they as busy with the theory of evolution or biblical story of creation) and neither take the biblical story of creation and Adam and Eve literally.
But those kind of atheists often focus on the literal part and how nonsensical it all is. Well, ever thought of regarding it as symbolical?? Or focussing on actual core issues and current daily practices instead? I guess that seems to be boring to do that with the majority of christians who lead normal lifes and have no issue with the peaceful and understanding atheist. Much better to focus on the absurd things and take them literally and project the exceptions on the majority.

 

What I don't like about Christianity is the whole thing of a man nailed to a tree, and if you don't believe it is necessary,'the will of god', you can't be saved. Messy, IMO.

OT mythology is probably no worse than a lot of other ancient mythologies. It's the NT with the crucifixion as the central thing I find a hard swallow, to say the least.

 

I like a lot about the NT. But yes, the christian focus on Jesus his death instead of his teachings is one of my least fav aspects of christianity in general. And it is true that it is not only 'a' centerpoint but in theory THE centerpoint of christianity as well. In practice though the focus often lies on giving thanks and live righteous by following the ten commandments for instance.
This is also a tiring issue when it comes to agitating atheists: they often insist on proclaiming that christians are massive hypocrites by taking the easy way with their religion: their sins are absolved and if they believe in God as their supreme master they can sin all they want and go to heaven by asking forgiveness on their deathbeds.
Well, I don't know many christians myself who sincerely have faith and think they can get away with that. My take is that it is again that certain kind of atheist that is focussing on christian theories but essentially taking everything out of context and/or too literally.

 

Seems to me that most Christians think the crucifixion was an actual historical event, not something to be taken as symbolic. Without it, what would be left of Christianity?
If you say it's the ethical teachings that are important, the same can be found in many other sources. Some other religions have good ethics but avoid bloody sacrifice as a central theme. Pagan philosophers such as the Stoics, Platonists etc seem to have just as high an ethical sense.
But the NT does seem to support things like the subjugation of women, slavery etc, as well as the more positive stuff. And I don't think I am guilty of taking those things too literally. I can't really see any symbolic truth behind some of the assertions of St.Paul. It all seems very black and white. We can't be saved by good works, only believing in the death and resurrection.

I wouldn't call myself an atheist, but I am certainly very agnostic these days when it comes to the old religions including Christianity.

 

Yes, I didn't say the crucifixion is not regarded as an actual historical event. I agree it is unfortunately the centerpoint of the religion.
If it looks like the NT supports those things as slavery it is merely because it is written in an age were slavery was a common thing. We can't blame the writers of the bible for mentioning those things that were simply integrated in their society at the time. I only ment it is more useful for an atheist to not take the genesis story too literally when confronting the average christian about how flawed their faith is. Because they themselves are often not busy with taking that part of the bible too literally.

 

Exactly, without the divinity of christ their religion would crumble


hotwater

 

This is a big magic show involving several persons to accomplish, a beneficent conspiracy. I look to the phrase these things were done to fulfill prophecy. The phrase isn't these things transpired as prophesied.

Of course I wouldn't find tns any more worthy than you of being reoriented surrounding any statement that claims the bible acts on any accord being of itself inanimate. The bible is interpreted in a plethora of ways but we apprehend best if we own all the words therein or wear them inside. The same could be said for everything we apprehend. We cannot unravel murder until we have dealt with the murderer within. As we perceive these things on the path to discovery we are approaching knowledge until we get near enough to true being that god takes the last step or we are translated into knowing which is beyond the perception of.

I give the example of learning to tie shoes. At first we fumble and tie poor knots but as we practice we learn dexterity until at some indeterminable point, tying shoes becomes part of you and you can tie shoes without thinking or consciously guiding the act. No longer a tier of shoes you become, tying shoes.

 

I see what you mean, that the Bible was written in an age when things we now regard as unacceptable were norms. Problem is that it's this age we live in, and I wonder if a book which accepts all that can really be a good guide for us here and now. Not unless you cherry pick the bits you like and discard the rest. But many Christians wouldn't accept that, as they say it's all the word of God.

I think probably you can get away with saying the creation in Genesis is symbolic. But there's a great deal more stuff in the OT which it may be very difficult to see like that.

 

Of course you're right, because your interpretation is the correct interpretation, and anyone who interprets it differently is automatically wrong I interpret the bible literally, which, I think, is the way it was intended to be interpreted. Why would the supposed "word of god" be interpreted any other way? Don't you think an all-powerful, just, loving god would make it a point to ensure that all of his so-called "children" knew for a fact EXACTLY what happened and what they were supposed to do, as opposed to leaving some insane, cryptic message that has to be decoded?

And what about Matthew 5:17-18? I've seen your response to this before, and you basically said "you're interpreting it incorrectly, TNS", but, like I said, I don't think it was intended to be interpreted any other way but literally, and, in the literal sense, I take it to mean that the laws of ALL of the prophets, from both the NT and the OT, are to be obeyed and enforced.

 

At any rate, I don't need a book to tell me what kind of person to be or how to live my life, and I feel sorry for anyone who does.

Also, the idea of an everlasting soul is just ridiculous. The "soul" is supposedly what makes us who we are, from our sexual preference to our favorite color to our taste in music, but we know that has nothing to do with anything but brain chemistry. When we die, and our brain activity ceases, eveything that makes us who we are, as individuals, completely ceases to exist.

 

Heaven and earth shall pass away but my words will last forever.
You are correct, the same is found in many other sources just as there are many climate zones and geographical areas where the shadows last longer than in other places all of those places representing an ecozone or a beneficial economy. Different religious vernaculars spring up in different climes and every one, as with anything else, will seek to occupy any available space.

Scapegoating is a way to satisfy murderous impulse. A cultural affectation applied in an effort to control chaotic conflict within the community. I don't know how that relates to greek life because I haven't studied philosophy or the greeks.

Actually there has been much dissent from the beginning regarding the assertions of Paul and if we look closely we find Paul is a zealous jew who was apt to overplay his hand. I think it was also attributed to Paul the saying faith without works is dead. Certainly jesus is quoted as saying not everyone who says to me lord, lord shall enter..but those who do the will of my father. Just saying there is legitimate grist for a bit of debate on the issue.

I ask the question what is it for and discover the answer to be ease of living or life more abundantly. These are abstract concepts and are represented with symbolism and ritual. These things in turn, symbolism and ritual, because the mind is abstract can be interpreted to mean many things. We however remain the measure of all things and to know a thing we need pour all of our faculties into it and on the basis of the experience of applying principle we may discern what has being disseminated as tried and true. We have in turn many examples of the tried and cared not enough to continue once reaching a certain degree of comfort or discomfort not realizing that comfort is likely to be temporary. If we are willing to admit to our level dissatisfaction at any point we could more quickly weed out our doubt and weed out those doctrinaire conclusions that do not yield results in the present.

Obviously for example the end of the world is not relevant to a life yet to be lived or in the midst of living,
Why worry for the morrow today has enough trouble of it's own? A confusion exists between expressions of interpretation and purpose or function. Doctrines are the precepts of men. Esoteric Christ teaching is based on axiomatic expressions such as the measure we give is the measure we receive and by logical extension then giving and receiving are equal truths and further to have all, give all to all.

 

Rationalizations that we fabricate about our religion when faced with cognitive dissonance.


That was the old testament. The new testament is what matters, so forget the old one.

The new testament is heresy. It's the old one that matters.

The testaments were written in an era meant for people in that era. They don't apply to today's era, so neither really matters.

The testaments have problems, but it's one's own personal experience today that really matters.

Problems with the written text arise from the vernacular that people used at the time of the writings. Everything makes sense if you understand the vernacular.

God used a secret code that needs to be deciphered in order to fully understand the meaning of the writings.

Particular passages apply to only a particular group of people.

Thousands of written prophecies have come to pass, which proves that the writings are the word of God.

The writings may be egomaniacal and genocidal, but that was simply God's way of trying to get his point across. They shouldn't be taken literally.