i have a few questions

first of all, why do muslims want to kill jews since they all come from the same tribe? jews are only one of the 12 tribes of israel so where are the rest of them.

another curiosity is that if allah is a god of justice then why do muslims so heartlessly kill other people (and thus disrespect their right of free thinking and right to live their life) and treat their women so badly?

i think the killing of van gogh was simply stupid. christians don't go around killing (apart from maybe george bush junior) anyone who doesn't believe their faith or who questions it. ok that was a stupid thing to compare christian to a muslim but it's still stupid to kill someone who just has a different opinion.

palestinians make a huge deal out of having a terrorist leader killed and it's oh so wrong. and when palestinians kill pregnant women (jews) and children it's ok and in the name of faith and liberation.

maybe i'll declare a holy war and start killing muslims and do so in the name of my faith, that makes it ok then doesn't it?

 

Firstly, as a jew I have had nothing but respect and love from muslims. Maybe its because I don't call them woman-haters and murderers But I have never heard of muslims hating jews any more than peanuts hating coffee. If you're referring to the situation in israel, with the palestinians (which I think you are), it's far far more complex than that and not a matter of "ooh yuck, jews, lets murder them all"

I really think you should read cabdirazzaq's post on what Islam is (thread: the true islam). (BTW: If every muslim killed one person, and treated women badly, you're looking at our world population being cut by about a quarter.) You're basically saying that because a minority of muslims do something, all muslims do- the Q'uran is against treating women badly (I think killing is condoned in some circumstances), and so you can't say muslims in general do this. It's like me saying that because some people are gay, all humans are gay, or that because one kid wants a strawberry icecream, all kids want a strawberry icecream.

In Israel, which I'm sure you're talking about now, I have been told palestinians are worse than jews, but I'm not gonna comment because I simply don't know and don't want to guess. But please remember that they are defined as PALESTINIANS, not MUSLIMS... Also, this has been going on for centuries, everyone likes to believe their side is fighting on the side of liberty.. Americans killed saddam in the name of faith and liberation, I've beaten someone up in the name of faith and liberation... From where I'm standing, it's the same thing. If you were in the palestinians situation (which I hope you aren't), how do you know you wouldn't do the same? You don't know what they've seen, or been through..

Just, if you want proper, nice replies from people, please don't assume things, and please don't make it sound like an attack on a group. I could make an equally horrible sounding thread about jews, christians, white people, americans..give me a group and i'll do it. You'll read it and probably say it's unfair and rude. That's how yours comes across.

 

alright i think you should do some more research before making these claims
first of all it was Israel(the Jews) that started this whole thing isreal started taking over Palestine Israel with their big ass tanks and weaponry supplied by the us compared to Palestine with their men strapping bombs to themselves why would the Palestine people do this if their god tells them not to well ~ cause theyre fuckin desperate the Palestinians are not the 'bad guy' though the media seems to portray them as so
it is however my opinion that Israel is the 'bad guy' Israel is the one with tanks and machine guns compared to Palestine that has nothing but a bunch of people strapping bombs to themselves
as for Christians not killing people well Hitler was Christian and he killed um let me see shit loads of people heres a quote from Mein Kampf:
"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."
so you see my friend you are kinda wrong
or maybe im full of shit but this is what i know to be true
this is my opinion so don’t take it too personally im strongly opinionated about this situation
in this world no one needs to die
~peace

 

Jus a question.. If you believe noone needs to die, then why do you back either of the two groups? I think both have caused unnecessary death, and I agree noone needs to die.. this is why I see them both as the same, really. It takes 2 to make a situation like this, and 2 to keep it the way it is.

 

im not backing either group but if you look at the situation its just not fair how the media protrays the Palestine as the bad guy when in reality its the other way around
and i believe no one NEEDS to die but that doesnt mean that people arent gonna die
and you know thinking about it people do need to die so just ignore that part

 

I feel that disarm has said most of what I thought about writing but anyway, it's extremly ignorant of you to judge islam for what muslims are doing and it´s no difference than for me to point my finger against christians for the crimes of nazi germany. Who said it's ok in the name of faith, perhaps you but certainty not my dear prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him)



Narrated Anas bin Malik: A Jewess brought a poisoned (cooked) sheep for the Prophet who ate from it. She was brought to the Prophet and he was asked, "Shall we kill her?" He said, "No." I continued to see the effect of the poison on the palate of the mouth of Allah's Apostle


"Yahya related to me from Malik from Nafi from Ibn Umar that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, saw the corpse of a woman who had been slain in one of the raids, and he disapproved of it and forbade the killing of women and children"

"I advise you ten things: Do not kill women or children or an aged, infirm person. Do not cut down fruit-bearing trees. Do not destroy an inhabited place. Do not slaughter sheep or camels except for food. Do not burn bees and do not scatter them. Do not steal from the booty, and do not be cowardly."

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) warned against transgressing against or wronging a kaafir whose rights are protected, as he said: “Whoever does wrong to a mu’aahad (a kaafir who has a peace treaty with the Muslims), or tries to put him down, or burdens him with more than he can bear, or takes something from him without his consent, I will be his opponent on the Day of Resurrection.”

"The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘Whoever kills a mu’aahid(one of those who have a peace treaty with the Muslims) will not smell the fragrance of Paradise, even though its fragrance may detected from a distance of forty days.’”

But without doubt those jewish zionist who kill and oppress muslim are in no peace treaty with the muslims.

 

like i said i was only making questions, no statements


and other groups get accused for the mistakes of individuals so i'm just curious why it can't be done with muslims

and don't make long threads i don't have the patience to listen to it

i'm a simple person, don't try to make things seem complicated because i won't accept that as an explanation.

and actually palestine being portrayed as the "bad guys" is total crap. everony is against israel (who actually worship the same god as muslims who themselves have said to believe in "god the father" only which is the same as jewish god).

i can understand israel having to defend themselves, they have more enemies than anyone else. they did not invade the space, it was given to them by the allies (i can't remember the exact date) and palestinians have ever since been trying to "cause trouble" (i can't think of a better description right now) so it's quite obvious that israel defends herself. and palestinians (who i'm not calling muslims but assume majority to be) know that israel will pay "double" back full well and still continue to attack


oh and let me add i mean absolutely nothing personal offense to anyone, just asking about your opinions. and apologies for making this post long :-S

 

Imagine your self walking through the streets of Milan and all the suddently the whole enviroment changes...
People with a different backround, language and religion are flowing in like rain drops on a rainy day. Military tanks and soldiers are being positioned in every corner of what you used to call home, familiar places were you used to play are now check up stations with heavily armed soldiers, you are not free to go out after a certain time and strange men are giving you orders of what you should do and not to do in your own homeland, you don't know what has happend to your kids if their late back home and the most horrible of all for any muslim, you are not free to practise your religion as you could before! But ofcourse they are terrosits for happening to be in a place at the wrong time???

There is a terrorist behind every BUSH

I don´t see how a peace treaty could be signed under jewish rule, there are a significant number of jews that can't stand the smell of muslims. Note that I am not saying all jews hate muslims but I am saying there are enough number needed to oppress muslim if they are under the rule of zionists. If you were to put christians under control it would only make matters worse, christians see jews as the killer of Christ, can we expect the minority of christians in Jerusalem to treat them or muslims which they see as a fake religion with a fake prophet with justice? My argument is simple, muslims are the only of these religion which respects all the prophets and believe in that the bible and the torah was sent from God(we do believe that it has been changed though) and can therefor treat every kind of people with justice and Allah(may he be exalted) has ordered for justice even though we may hate them (Interpretation of the meaning):

O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah as just witnesses; and let not the enmity and hatred of others make you avoid justice.[quran 5.8]

And he speaks in the quran of how he had honored the children of Israel, just reminding them of their father-Israel(Jacob) is an honor (Interpretation of the meaning):

O Children of Israel! Remember My favor which I bestowed upon you and that I preferred you over the `Alamin (nations)

and about the christians:

...and you will find the nearest in love to the believers those who say: "We are Christians.'' That is because among them are priests and monks, and they are not proud.

As proof isn´t enough that jews and chrisitans were living saftley under muslim rule in Spain for almost 700 years even though all the neghbouring christians countries had driven out the jews?

 

so the area of israel would be better under palestinina rule? wouldn't jews be persecuted in that case?. jews only have one "homeland", and muslims have most of middle-east. although i do think that they should be able to live together.

just a random question again; i'm not a muslim so why are you trying to reason with quotes from q'uran (i don't know how to spell it)?

 

I think what you people need to do is stop being so gullible .

if islam isnt against women why does it say to beat them in islamic scripture.
why do you need two womens testimony in court to equal that of one man.


why do countrys that really try their hardest to apply and really understand islamic scripture like saudi arabia not allow women to vote, or drive a car, or leave the country if they dont want to be muslims .

the countrys where women have the most rights are the least islamic places like turkey thats are influenced by the west.

I really think cab should go and live in a real islamic country as a girl to see what its like

as for muslims being friends with christians and jews its says in the koran

5:51 O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Auliyâ' (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but Auliyâ' to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as Auliyâ', then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allâh guides not those people who are the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong*doers and unjust)

and for pagans

9:5 But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful

more
4:89 They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks (one translations says Christians and Jews) until they flee in the way of God (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;

8:60 Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of God and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom God doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of God, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly

what I would suggest people do is go through the articles on http://faithfreedom.org about islam the site is set up by ex-muslims, and there are men and women there you can talk to who have been brought up as muslims and reject the religion.

most have to hide who they are because other muslims will kill them for leaving

some at present live in islamic countrys as muslims which is extreamly dangerous for them as other muslims including their familys are likely to kill them if they find out .

you can talk to them if you think well of islam and see a side of the religion that is not shown in the media .

ayaan hirshi ali is a ex-muslim she has to live in hiding with armed guards she made the film submission with theo van gogh who was killed recently

 

In any other place and time I would argue otherwise, justifying these passages as outdated, pertinent to the time, or something else. But. In judaism and christianity we have just as many horrible passages telling us we can do horrible things. I'm not going to go mental against Islam because some parts of their holy book have negative, horrible passages just like mine does. Further, I would only have a problem with these passages being in the Q'uran if people actually adhered to things like segregating themselves (and worse) from ones not of their faith, etc.

 

What rights are we talking about here, what is it they have there which is so extrordinary, the freedom of having huge posters posted everywhere with slim models showing everything without a grain of shame? The western societies way of treating women is very like the old slave tradery you had over there, remember those times johnny? She is usefull as long as shes young and beautiful then stuffed in some old house forgotten and betrayen of everbody around her. When I was in Syria this passed summer I saw an extremely shocking and odd picture which I don't think I´ve ever seen as an ad before, I saw in the 'middle' of Damascus a great poster hanging with a brah without a woman wearing it!!!
Think about it, have you ever in your life seen such a thing in such a big advertising poster, it looked quite odd sense I was use to seing a spinky half dead creature up there wearing the brah. What are you trying to fool us with, 50 years ago a woman couldn't even buy a car without her husbands premission, the rights which they have been given such as education and employment are things which muslim women have had for a long time now(as long as its a permissible job and education is without the mixing of sexes and the like) unlike your society Johnny.

Have I said anything of being friends with christians or jews? Johnny there is great difference between being friends with someone and loving this person compared to simply giving a person his rights and treating him nice, Allah(ma he be exalted) says(interpretation of the meaning):

Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.

The first verse you quoted is called the verse of the sword, the muslims had been oppressed, beaten, scorned, mocked and killed by pagans before in Mekka and they could not take up any arms against them while they were weak, but gradually the muslims became stronger and stronger and more in number. Are we to expect the house of Allah, the land of the last prophet which was awaited by the jews in Medina to be filled with people bowing to a stone or an idol?
And about the other 2 verses you quoted, where is the context for these verses Johny? Lets see and examine how they look with the context, (interpretation of the meaning):

8.60. And make ready against them all you can of power, including steeds of war to threaten the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others besides them, whom you may not know but whom Allah does know. And whatever you shall spend in the cause of Allah shall be repaid unto you, and you shall not be treated unjustly.

8.61. But if they incline to peace, you also incline to it, and trust in Allah. Verily, He is the All-Hearer, the All-Knower.

4.89. They wish that you reject faith, as they have rejected, and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Awliya' from them, till they emigrate in the way of Allah. But if they turn back, take (hold of) them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Awliya' nor helpers from them.

4.90. Except those who join a group, between you and whom there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with their breasts restraining from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. Had Allah willed, indeed He would have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So, if they withdraw from you, and fight not against you, and offer you peace, then Allah has made no way for you against them.

Thousands of people commit suicide every year because they hate life and find it bad, does this mean all we other million people share their view? These hypocrites which leave the religion are people following lusts and no guidance just as the suiciders they are few in number and if they leave it will not hurt me at all, they are the ones destroying for themselves.

"O ye Unbelievers! Make no excuses this Day! Ye are being but requited for all that ye did!"

 

"I would only have a problem with these passages being in the Q'uran if people actually adhered to things like segregating themselves (and worse) from ones not of their faith, etc."

disarm thats exactly what is happening with all muslims thats islam
you seem pretty gullible or in your dealings with muslims you dont ask the right questions.

no muslim can deny that the koran is the word of god so if it says dont take a christian or jew as a friend you shouldnt take a christian or a jew as a friend .
and if it says you shouldnt let a muslim girl marry a non muslim thats followed too .

cab if you look in our society we have women in positions of power like margret thatcher she wasnt elected because she was young or beautiful .
we have women in the army or flying jet planes killing jihadis scum ,so I dont think you can say that women in our society are just sex objects some women choose to model clothes thats their choice.


its good that you admit that you shouldnt be friends with or love christians or jews it would be good if people in the west generally knew how muslims feel towards them maybe they would stop giving muslims asylum in their countrys and stop giving muslims aid.

why if you feel this way are you living in sweden, why are muslims trying to come into the west all the time ?

in islamic law what position would pagans, or atheists ,or people like me who have read the koran and haddith a number of times and believe that the so called "prophet " mohammed was a meglomaniac psychopath who married a six year old and raped people have .

I mean we wouldnt have the oppertunity of a second class apartied dhimmi status that you would give to christians and jews so what would happen to us.

your justifying the verse of sword because you say that muslims were perscuted you claim that people who leave islam are following lusts and that they are commiting suicide

think of a 6 year old child and a 54 year old man isnt that pretty sick isnt that following lusts can you really believe what such a man would say
what about having all those wives and sex slaves that mohammed had isnt that lustful killing peoples familys and then forcing them to sleep with you .

 

Are we to expect the house of Allah, the land of the last prophet which was awaited by the jews in Medina to be filled with people bowing to a stone or an idol?

lol thats exactly what muslims do its what mohammed did kissing a black stone

look up black stone mecca and you will see stuff on what muslims do in mecca
I just did a random search for pictures and found this site http://www.crystalinks.com/blackstone.html and you will see this meteorite that mohammed kissed .

imagine you were trying to stamp out idol worship what would make a grown man kiss a stone meteorite and then others put a stone in a silver box
what would make people run around another box a practice that kills muslims all the time

 

Theres a big difference between worshipping a stone or kissin one, we do as the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) did,


Abdullah b. Sarjis reported: I saw the bald one, i. e. 'Umar b. Khattib (Allah be pleased with him). kissing the Stone and saying: BY ALLAH. I AM KISSING WITH FULL CONSCIOUSNESS OF THE FACT THAT YOU ARE A STONE AND THAT YOU CAN NEITHER DO ANY HARM NOR GOOD; and if I had not seen Allah's Messenger (may peace and blessing be upon him) kissing you. I would not have kissed you.

I live in Sweden because I have no other choice for the moment.

 

You have no real conception of how many people I dislike, do you..and how many people I am nice to and who I consider a friend..I'm not going to walk up to someone and demand to know exactly where I stand in terms of religion with them, just like I am not going to walk up to someone who I believe is a slut/bitch/prick/asshole and demand to know whether they will treat me so. People don't expect that of me, nor do I expect that of them in return, and I would surely hope that you don't check everyone you meet out on such negative and confrontational terms. I get on with life and treat people as nicely as I can; if they don't want to/can't be friends, or if I don't like them, I'm not going to treat them as if they don't deserve the same courtesy and respect as anyone else. If muslims don't want to be nice to me, that's their deal. But none have been rude to me, and if they did I certainly wouldn't be prejudiced against them.

 

well I still dont see why mohammed would kiss a stone if he was against idol worship.
it doesnt seem a logical action to me, I now what 'Umar b. Khattib said but it doesnt seem like something you would normally do

and I understand that you dont want to live in sweden I remember you saying that before .
but it really annoys me I go on islamic sites and read muslims posting how they hate the countrys theyve come to and how they cant stand being around non muslims
and it makes me pretty mad, they dont generally tell non-muslims thats how they feel because they are building up numbers .

I think we are being taken for fools
I dont see islam spreading in the west by people thinking islam is a great religion and joining just by immigration and a high birthrate .

muslims tried invading europe for about a thousand years and they never got anywhere and now our governments have invited them in .
and all I can see is a massive war like bosnia the way things are going.

I know a number of people stuck in islamic states who would love to leave but they cant and they cant tell anyone how they feel because they are likely to be killed as apostates .
in a perfect world we should be able to exchange them for all the people who are living in the west and want to live in islamic states .

 

disarm I dont want you to be mean to muslims just aware of what their beliefs towards you might be .

now Im not nasty to all muslims because a lot of them dont really know whats in the religion either, some people who call themselves muslims do make friends with non muslims but the religion will tell them not to .

lots of things that are in the koran arnt practised that much like cutting off the opposing hand and foot or cruifixtion or slavery but they are still in the religion .

Islam is at its base a very nasty cruel religion, I dont like most other religions either stoning used to be practiced by jews, but as far as I know I may be wrong there isnt a call by jews to bring back stoning disobedient children in the village square .

This isnt the case with islam you have countrys like Iran that have brought back things like stoning .
and the more muslims you get the more pressure there is to bring in sheria world wide because the more religous ones point out to the others that thats what should be done .

you may think me confrontational, but I think Im plain speaking and honest, I dont make up lies about islam or mohammed some of the things I say I can understand would upset muslims
but I cant see how I can say why I think the religion is wrong without saying them .

if I was wrong they should be able to come up with counter arguments that would make the man in the street think the religion was logical that mohammed was a man of outstanding good character ect ect ect .

I was slightly sorry about the way I spoke about mohammeds relationship with aisha, but cab had pissed me off saying that people who leave islam do so following their lusts when most of the ones I know didnt leave to live a life of wine women and song but left because they thought mohammeds actions had been immoral .

thats by the way why I stopped being a morman years ago because I thought gods actions in the old testiment showed a low standard of morality and ethics .

 

jonny


tell me about the Aga Khan, if you would. I am curious since I have met acquaintances of his.

 

First, I didn´t mean that all women in your society are treated like "used merchandise" but alot of them. Why is it so crucial that there must be a picture of a model on a chocolate bar to have it sold? Try walking in a grocery store and look at all the products and try counting every product that has a picture of a young woman, you would end up with a whole lot of numbers. The tv ads are even worse, when do we ever see a tv commercial showing men in shorts, not often but how many times a day do we see women underwear, or women who are showering, I thought men used schampo as well but they make it look like its a product whis only consumed by females.

Most converts are leaving because of lusts Johnny, living a pure life is harder than leaving a wild one isn it? Islam is the fastest growing religion, not only because of birthrate but also because of converts, who says so?

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9704/14/egypt.islam/
"Islam is the fastest-growing religion in America, a guide and pillar of stability for many of our people..." HILLARY RODMAN CLINTON, Los Angeles Times, May 31, 1996, p.3

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Already more than a billion-people strong, Islam is the world’s fastest-growing religion. ABCNEWS, Abcnews.com ​

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"Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the country." NEWSDAY, March 7, 1989, p.4 ​

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"Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the United States..." NEW YORK TIMES, Feb 21, 1989, p.1 ​

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Moslems are the world's fastest-growing group..." USA TODAY, The populationreferance bureau, Feb. 17, 1989, p.4A ​

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"Muhummed is the most successful of all Prophets and religious personalities. " Encyclopedia Britannica​

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"Islam continues to grow in America, and no one can doubt that!" CNN, December 15, 1995 ​

"The religion of Islam is growing faster than any other religion in the world." MIKE WALLACE, 60 MINUTES

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