How Stupid Can Americans get Before the Country Falls Apart

Discussion in 'Politics' started by ~Zen~, Oct 8, 2021.

  1. wooleeheron

    wooleeheron Brain Damaged Lifetime Supporter

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    Extensive studies have shown that classrooms can be easily 120 students to a single teacher with automation. Teachers are horribly exploited, and still have unions for a reason, but the truth is they allow themselves to be exploited by the same students they teach. They have created their own disaster, and I have no sympathy for idiots who cannot even appreciate the value of insisting every child know how to use a dictionary, share their words, and play nice.
     
  2. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    How do you know it wouldn't be worse? Unions are needed now for the same reason they were need then. Laws change my friend and unified groups of people can always work for improvement.
    Now you're on to mask wearing. What is the big deal about wearing a mask to help stop the spread of a virus? Please explain that to me.
    The system. Please explain what about "the system" you don't like and how unions contribute to the evils of "the system".
    Why would teachers not want lower cost higher quality education? What does a competitive private school look like? Define the word competitive for me. Please cite facts and statistics that support your contention that private schools are any better than public schools. I'll wait.
    What lies are you referring to that teacher's unions make up?
    Okay, so again define what you mean by competition and market rate of cost/quality. How will you measure cost /quality? What do you mean when you refer to competition? What are you talking about when you say the money is coming out of my pocket anyway? I thought public schools were funded by the public for the benefit of society and the masses and private schools were funded by private tuition for the benefit of those that can afford the tuition. I don't support any private schools at the moment, but I do pay taxes, so what are you talking about?
     
  3. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Now wait a minute, are you saying you want public taxes to support private schools? If tax dollars are used to fund a school, then it becomes a school supported by public taxes. In other words a public school. So I don't understand what you're saying here. I thought you wanted competition between private and public schools?
     
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  4. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Please tell me how the right wants to give every child in the United States an education, and be explicit as to what kind of education.
    Teachers unions are private enterprises, same as any other union. They are run by officials elected by the members.
    Why do you care how much teachers' unions are worth? Don't you believe in free enterprise?

    Now as to what a union is.
    Unions have been active in the U.S since 1794.
    Official right by law to form a union was given in 1935 by the National Labor Relations Act.
    To form a union a group of people meet and elect officers to represent them to their employer. A union is a representative democracy, same as the United States.
    Instead of paying taxes, members pay dues which fund union activities aimed at helping the worker, improving the company or entity they are employed by and thus the consumer and themselves, or improving society in general. These funds are also invested on the open market and used by the unions for the previously stated aims.
    The unions also represent the workers to the employer by bargaining. The employer never has to agree to any bargain unless a national emergency is enacted, in which case the union members may also be forced to accept something they don't want.

    Now what don't you understand, or what do you disagree with?
     
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  5. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Please cite these extensive studies.
    What kind of classroom and student are they talking about? One hundred and twenty 3rd graders in a room with one adult? Really? How about one hundred and twenty 9th graders? Ever taught 9th graders?
    I really don't think you have thought this through.
     
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  6. oldguynurse

    oldguynurse Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    I think woolheron went overboard there, BUT, there is a grain of truth in there to be found.

    My son, years ago in grammar school, had classes with 30 students. Now my grandson, in middle-school is in the same boat. They don't even teach cursive writing any more! WHAT? My mother was a high school teacher for 30 yrs, I substitute-taught for a few weeks after college. 30 students in one room, with one "teacher", in today's constantly-distracted society, is NOT going to impart much actual knowledge. It may go through the motions, and fulfill alleged requirements, but as far as learning? Smaller classes, with more focused teachers (some have no business being there) will pull us out of the 'dumbing down' of our society. Unfortunately, good luck with that happening.
     
  7. granite45

    granite45 Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    By those values T….and his entire entourage would flunk.
     
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  8. Tishomingo

    Tishomingo Members

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    I've found that folks who are narrowly, technically trained in disciplines like Electrical Engineering are sometimes limited in their ability to understand political and social issues. Doesn't always hold them back, but the result is sometimes rigid thinking and Archie Bunker-style pearls of simplistic "wisdom", backed by a bad case of the Dunning-Kruger syndrome and contempt for anybody who studied the "soft" subjects. After all, they know they're smarter cuz they make better money. Or was that what you meant by the "other" EE. Other possibilities are Escape and Evasion, Everyone Else.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2021
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  9. wooleeheron

    wooleeheron Brain Damaged Lifetime Supporter

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    They already flunk according to their own values. Their population is imploding faster than any other on the planet, and the louder they scream for lower taxes, the faster their population implodes. Forget about Donald Duck, children's values and mental health has gone down the toilet altogether over the last two decades, while the lily white population has the highest rates of suicide, abortion, divorce, alcoholism, and rape, making their children proud. They can stand on any soap box they want, but one thing you can't hide, is when you're cripple inside.
     
  10. granite45

    granite45 Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    When I was in college my major was Forestry. I went to a local state college I could afford and took only liberal arts classes for 2 years, then transferred to a major university for classes in my major. Of course I felt extremely stymied because I couldn’t take classes in my major for two years…..but I soon found out that was the best thing that ever happened to me. Those liberal arts classes were challenging, relevant, and priceless. As my career advanced those classes became more and more valuable, especially in graduate school. Engineering schools of high repute have a broad requirement of liberal arts classes, thank God.

    By the way our son was a EE graduate, had a cadre of required liberal arts classes and has a successful career in a very highly technical applied EE/physics field. Never once have I heard him utter disparaging remarks about other fields and other disciplines. Educational elitism is as ugly as any other form of elitism.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2021
  11. Tishomingo

    Tishomingo Members

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    If you're saying this about the U.S. population, that doesn't seem to be the case. There's been a decline in the U.S. population growth during the past decade, owing to a decline in immigration. Growth has slowed every year since 2015, when the population increased 0.73% relative to the previous year compared to 2.78 for Iraq, 3.06 for Tanzania, 4.86 for Jordan.
    Drops in Natural Increase, Net International Migration Resulted in 0.5% Annual Growth to 328.2M
    List of countries by population growth rate - Wikipedia

    If you're saying it about Trump's entourage, it sadly seems to be the reality. Instead of the rats leaving the sinking ship, they're scrambling on board!

     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2021
  12. oldguynurse

    oldguynurse Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    Absolutely correct, my friend! As I heard two LSU faculty griping about, the idea of 'college' has become just glorified 'trade schools' instead of a wide-ranging 'education' which it used to be. It prepared us for whatever came our way years in the future. My B.A was in Graphic Design, next degree was in Nursing, but if I hear someone refer to a line from Dante or Milton or Newton or Churchill, I'm right there with them.
     
  13. soulcompromise

    soulcompromise Member HipForums Supporter

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    I count myself educated, by and large by having attended community college.

    I don't like big universities - I've been to at least three... The mentality is darkened by a sort of unearned-elitism. Your membership to USC entitles you to more than your membership to Community College. How does that work again?

    I haven't been to USC - I can't afford it. Are their workloads higher or something? Maybe that's how they measure it...

    And even though I haven't been there no, I don't think so.


    It's a time honored tradition, mindless, arbitrary, and nonsensical that certain so-called prestigious institutions are valued above other similarly accredited institutions.

    That's one of the systemic problems in our country. It isn't the equality that we strive for. And while those schools are fine, they are for the very rich...

    And so, while we cannot afford USC - at least not easily or very well, we can educate ourselves. We can know as much, but can we achieve as much? It's doubtful.


    And the high-ranking position goes to... ?

    The USC student.

    Of course, I'm old now. I don't care. It's not my cause. But I see the problem. We need a system that educates people of all creed, color, and social position. One that educates the poor to thrive in positions of authority, management, clerical, technical, medical, ... etc.

    Judicial? what about legislative? :D
     
  14. oldguynurse

    oldguynurse Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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  15. soulcompromise

    soulcompromise Member HipForums Supporter

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    I tend toward a stringent personal policy. I hold myself accountable. But, I'm very realistic when it comes to my expectation of the general populace. Meaning? I do not expect them to "want to learn".

    I don't expect they're motivated to rise to the top by anything other than money. They're not concerned with the longevity of the organization, or the liquidity of the assets, nor the solvency of the debt portfolio. No, they're not... I know it, and you know it. Well, what then?

    I believe in equality. And given the opportunity to succeed, they will inadvertently stumble into knowledge - powerful knowledge. Perhaps not knowledge of self, but with certainty knowledge of the company, its practices, and potentially its industry. And that will count for something, and lend credibility to their esteem.

    These are at the foundation of personal achievement and actualization. But we're not a country full of these, no.

    The successful are drowning in hordes of ignorant underlings - people who as previously mentioned do not "want to learn". That is something that wasn't covered in their lesson... And that is what has to change.

    It's the system, I promise you that. When those who are ill fortuned find themselves just as -motivated- as the fortunate, then they will succeed. Because truly and thankfully we honest to goodness have a competitive edge when it comes to equality. Equal opportunity is very very very common language in the U.S. economy - it's the backbone... We definitely can find them at all levels of every industry if we simply provide adequate motivation and an education. (it doesn't even have to be a good education - satisfactory would be an improvement)
     
  16. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Certain colleges and Universities earn higher respect becasue of their performance.
    A top ranked university or college can attract the best professors available, the best students and thus a "better" group of peers, devote more resources to education such as all forms of technology and better libraries, develop research programs which enhance learning opportunities, and offer a wider array of programs and internal colleges.
    Universities also tend to promote research as opposed to two or four year colleges. For example in Pennsylvania a college can not be an accredited university unless it has a library, for research purposes, of a certain type, among other things.
     
  17. wooleeheron

    wooleeheron Brain Damaged Lifetime Supporter

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    You are looking at how our population has grown, including baby boomers that are still alive, and not how many children they are producing, with the average woman now having 1.73 children, when over a century ago it was seven or more. In places like Michigan, up to a quarter of adults no longer want children at all, while extensive studies have concluded children's mental health and values have gone down the toilet altogether. In Japan, woman have actually protested against online porn as making it impossible to get laid, while the number of single men with low incomes and who are unlikely to reproduce as often, is increasing.

    All the evidence indicates that modern civilization eats people alive for fun and profit, and Wall Street can import all the labor and talent they want. Actually creating a sustainable culture and ecology is unimportant when Donald Duck is the future emperor of the planet!
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2021
  18. scratcho

    scratcho Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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  19. scratcho

    scratcho Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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  20. Tishomingo

    Tishomingo Members

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    It's complicated. 1.Meaning of "education". There are differences of opinion over what "educated" means. I favor oldguynurse's concept:" a wide-ranging, broad-overview of all of human history, knowledge and behavior." A disciplined scholar can achieve that on his/her own, without even going to college, but college provides an environment and resources that make it easier. In our materialistic, anti-intellectual society, such a view is probably uncommon. Higher education is viewed instrumentally, as a means to an end, and largely as a credentialing process. You go to college or university to get a good job. If you could get that without going there, why bother and waste all that time and money. 2. Personality and background of the student. Donald Trump brags about his elite education and graduation from the Wharton school. Yet he blocks any effort to find out how well he did there, and all he has to do is open his mouth (e.g., to tell us how the colonial army took over the airfields during the American Revolution) to show how profoundly uneducated and ignorant he is. And some students are intimidated by large universities and would do better at the local community college. A kid who graduated from high school in Bugtussle or Slapout,Oklahoma (yes, they really exist; so does Podunk, OK, although it doesn't have a high school) might find UCLA overwhelming. 3. Caliber of the professors. Elite institutions are able to be more selective about who they put behind the podium. Community colleges often take whoever has the bare minimum formal credentials. 4. Teaching vs. research emphasis. Major universities tend to be more about research than teaching. They make their reputations from research and their money from research grants.Professors who bring in the grant money and are published in major refereed journals of their disciplines have the reputations and the bigger salaries. Of course, not all disciplines are equally positioned to do this, and some departments will probably emphasize teaching more than others. But it is too often the case that students will either be taught by a professor who may have priorities elsewhere than the classroom, or by his/her graduate teaching assistant whose English language skills are limited. There are definite pros and cons to being taught by a world-recognized scholar, as opposed to a relative non-entity who can engage the class and is dedicated to their learning. Some of us are fortunate to have had professors who do both. 5. Quality of fellow classmates. An important part of the learning experience comes from discussions with fellow students. Much as it goes against the grain of populist egalitarianism, it is probably true that a class consisting of carefully selected members who were the best and brightest of their high school classes is more conducive to intellectual growth than a bunch of commuter students who barely got through high school. On the other hand, some can be snobs, and some like Trump just have rich daddies. 6. Equipment and facilities. It used to be that a blackboard and chalk were enough, but these days, we need powerpoint, libraries, and (depending on the field) labs. There's a big difference between universities and community colleges where labs and libraries are concerned. Also, buildlings, especially Georgian or gothic-syle, lawns, ivy, etc., make a difference in ambience, which is an important part of the college/university mystique.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2021
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