How Long Before the New Revolution?

Discussion in 'Activist Polls' started by skip, Nov 14, 2007.

  1. skip

    skip Founder Staff Member

    How long do you think it will be before the PEOPLE take back the power they vested in their political leaders? How long before the New Revolution that will destroy the existing system?
     
  2. nerthus

    nerthus Member

    definitely within the next fifty years, no doubt. maybe twenty. we're reaching a crisis point very very quickly...
     
  3. earthmother

    earthmother senior weirdo

    Perhaps when the election is stolen in '08.... Or when martial law is enacted after the next attack... Soon?
     
  4. ripple

    ripple Member

    It's not going to happen anytime soon. The vast majority of people are more concerned with what make of trainers/sneakers they have on their feet than with the state of society around them. Who cares about some poor brown Iraqi when you can go out and buy the latest Nokia.
     
  5. AmIAYou

    AmIAYou Member

    when

    -people stop believing that a piece of paper (money) is really worth the food on their tables
    -the third world says "f*ck you" to the entire first world (specifically the banks)
    -when activists start being seen as people with sense, not a bunch of vegan treehugging hippies
    -when the aforementioned crisis point hits, people will lose trust and faith in society, they will stop caring about their shoes and start caring about where the next meal comes from. This is when the imaginary basis of society dissappears and people realize that all there is them survival and the other people trying to get it,

    personally i hope that in the predicted 90% of the earth's land population dies out that either society has totally collapsed (meaning that the remaining humans have to live in a anarcho-primitivist manner) or no human being is left. Either way the earth is left enough time to repair itself in. A big cycle.
    Our culture will leave behind the Eiffel Tower, the Arc de Triomphe, and the White House, just as previous excessive hedonistic cultures have left behind Stonehenge, the Pyramids, the Easter Island heads, or the legend of Atlantis. A big cycle, evolution, stagnation, failure restart.
     
  6. themnax

    themnax Senior Member

    probably not so much a revolution as a corrupt colapse of the old and existing order. along more or less the same lines as what happened in rusia with the decline in dominance of it's pretense of pseudo-marxism.

    the corporate mafia is stretched out along a middle eastern bridge of pearls. will it be undone by this and how soon? i don't know. on either count.

    i wouldn't want to jinx anything by making wild guesses. some things will chainge though. some for the better. some for the worse. life goes on.

    =^^=
    .../\...

    whatever happens politically, in another twenty years most likely, anyone of average income, if the concept of income still means anything, which is also uncertain, won't be able to afford to drive. gas stations will be going or gone out of bussines because their wholsale costs will exceed what the retail public will be able to pay for their products and services.

    and the dollar, yah, it's pretty much collapsed now from over printing and the keep pumping out more of them.

    i don't know what will happen or how. i've guessed so wrong so many times before that i'm hesitant to be certain about much of anything. the range of what is no longer imprabable is SO wide.

    yes, i do think there is a good chance of people who can't even imagine not being emotionally attatched to them now, will be forced to give up many of the delusions at the root of what they currently mistake for civilization.

    what exactly will be the shape of the resault of that is by no means certain though. what america pretended to be, fell, when raygun threw f.d.r.'s "socialism' out with the bath water. it may take another decade or two for the die hards to realize that. and in that time, many things could chainge, or turn around. if they don't turn around and bite us first.

    there is no certainty as to which will happen. either could. people seem to always try to continue what they are familiar with as long as they can. precisely by doing so of course, they create and alter conditions such that at some point it becomes no longer possible to do so.

    that much is predictable. but that is as much as i presently feel confident of certainty that it is.

    it does look like a time of suffering is ahead. food and water shortages and today's powerful and advantaged places not escaping them.

    so i guess we should probably enjoy our steaks and turkey dinners now, while we still can, so at least we'll have fond memories of them to look back on as we're starving, if that's what it comes to, as indeed it very well could.

    but maybe we could forestall that day a little bit, by not driving our suv's every time we head for the 7-11/am-pm at the end of the block.

    =^^=
    .../\...
     
  7. violetearth

    violetearth Member

    not soon enough. times have changed man. there's not to many of us left. it's sad. most people are worried about making tons of money and what they can get/do with it. it still blows my mind that people in government (trying to cover all bases with that word) get to set their own salaries, health ins., etc.. guess who pays for that? if we all collectively stood up for our rights i believe we can make a difference. remember england?
     
  8. skip

    skip Founder Staff Member

    You mean something like this?

    [​IMG]
     
  9. gardener

    gardener Realistic Humanist

    Why should it take a new revolution? Why can't change be accomplished through our existing forms of government?
     
  10. skip

    skip Founder Staff Member

    Two words...

    Institutionalized Corruption.

    If the whole institution is corrupt it must be destroyed and replaced.

    In this case it must be replaced with PEOPLE POWER!

    We don't need a representative gov't anymore.

    We can govern ourselves if given the proper tools.

    We have the those tools now (right under your fingertips).

    So what are we waiting for?
     
  11. gardener

    gardener Realistic Humanist

    You may not need a represtative government anymore. But I do.

    So you are proposing revolution Skip, what are you promising the people...more empty promises?

    What are those tools?
     
  12. gardener

    gardener Realistic Humanist

    If you are implying that computer keyboards are the tools. Moderators and site owners have tyrannical power on the internet.

    The only power computer users have is the ability to go somewhere else.

    I can't uproot my family and home, everytime some little power hungry little jerk wants to ban me.
     
  13. skip

    skip Founder Staff Member

    I've recently come up with an interesting concept. Government by proxy.

    Under this scheme each citizen would assign proxies for different issues or subjects.

    So for instance if I was a "registered proxy", you could list me as your proxy for say Environmental Issues. That would mean I could vote for you on any environmental issues that come up for a vote. I'm your proxy because you agree with the positions I take on that subject.

    I might have a few thousand proxies, so when I cast my vote, there are thousands of identical votes being recorded.

    You could vote yourself or assign proxies for other issues. On a particular environmental vote if you didn't agree you could revoke your proxy and vote yourself on that one issue.

    So citizen participation in the electoral process is variable according to each person. You could cast all votes yourself or all by proxy or anywhere in between.

    You wouldn't have to be totally informed on every issue if you use a proxy, because you trust the proxy to vote in your interest, just like having a representative.

    The benefit of course is that you're not stuck with someone representing you, who you voted against. Or, if you did vote for the guy but he takes a different position on certain issues that mean a lot to you, you'd never be stuck with his opposing votes.

    So the WILL OF THE PEOPLE is carried out on every vote. There's no chance for a representative to "vote his conscience", instead of his constituents' desires.

    It's also possible to keep the entire voting process OUT IN THE OPEN, on the INTERNET subject to infinite number of checks (every voter can check out every vote themselves!). So there's no hanging chads, no polling stations, no lines to wait on, no disruption at all to your daily life.

    All of this is possible with existing technology.

    And that's only the beginning...

    Imagine...
    No more democratic or republican parties
    No more election campaigns
    No more election campaign commercials!
    No more CONGRESS!
    No more lying, thieving, corrupt politicians
    No more paying all those unnecessary salaries
    No more LOBBYISTS!
    No more corporate influence over gov't
    No more election fraud
    No more Red and Blue states
    No more ELECTORAL COLLEGE!

    Aren't these ALL things we want to get rid of?

    Again, what are we waiting for?
     
  14. skip

    skip Founder Staff Member

    You are sadly lacking imagination my friend.
     
  15. i agree, but what's wrong with vegan treehugging hippies?
    if pro is the opposite of con, is congress the opposite of progress? ;)
     
  16. mr.morrison

    mr.morrison Senior Member

    well, if the southeast US doesnt get rain soon, it could fall into anarchy. the atlanta area only has 3 months of drinking water left. imagine what would happen if people ran out of water? chaos. killing neighbors for a 12 oz cup of water, trampling people to get to the organizations who bring water to those in need. and when the govt cant fix that problem, people will begin to wonder what else they cant fix

    and we need congress. without them, the executive branch would be much much more powerful than it already is. its all the checks and balences
     
  17. themnax

    themnax Senior Member

    this is a very interesting concept. it would of course require the drafting and adopting of an entirely new from the ground up constitution to impliment. that of course is not a bad idea either, although the same risk of overlooking details that we are now 'paying the devil' for their having been overlooked in creating the one we have.

    two minor quibbles with your "no more"s though:

    this would not eliminate a congress or a need for one, but rather replace it with another KIND of congress, but still a kind of congress none the less. which is to say, a 'congress' of these 'proxys'.

    whether or not the label proxy is appled, whether or not they ever physically meet face to face, this also HASN'T eleminated lobying.

    it would be a whole new and different playing field for lobying, but, don't kid yourself that every 'proxy' wouldn't be lobbied, just members of the kinds of congressess we have now are.

    and while different, and interesting because it might more people more of a voice in/on issues that interest them, i see no reason to assume it would be any less, or more, corruptable, then what we have now.

    being new, the proccess of corrupting it, would of course have to begin all over again from zero. but you can pretty much bet your lifesavers it would.

    elemination of political parties and campaigning is indeed a plus.

    so those ARE the two plusses, more direct citizen access to issues on which they are intersted, and thus more likely informed, and of course bypassing of the mechanism of partisinship, which would remove much of the incentive for creating prejudices as wedge issues to politically devide and concor with.

    there are indeed many ways in which soverignty can be controlled or at least influenced by those subject to it, and more effectively, without partizenship to muddie the waters.

    plurality voting is one. but i do like the idea of issue based representation in place of geographic or homonginized pseudo-representation of population en mass, which of course, can never be truely representative of anyone, let alone all the wonderous and infinite diversity of us.

    there are of course opportunities for political shinanigans in such a system. as indeed there will always be in any system we can devise, discouver, or find revealed to us.

    it's along way from being foolproof, and it might take me a while to figgure out if i, or anyone would actually feel more that it could be truted. what the ins and outs of how to prevent, or at least delay and frustrate, the various ways in which it COULD be corrupted. and which, it almost goes without saying, would begin their inevetable assaults of doing so, every bit as soon as it was implimented. just as they would and have, any other.

    =^^=
    .../\...
     
  18. skip

    skip Founder Staff Member

    Thanks for the response themnax.

    I did misname the type of gov't. I wouldn't necessarily call it "gov't by proxy", although that is the way people CAN vote (but they can still vote by themselves, free of any outside influence).

    I'd call it gov't by the PEOPLE. Proxies are just one facet, used to vote.

    The way I see it, everything including registered proxy activity is kept VISIBLE to everyone, so if you give your proxy to someone, your name (or ID#) would show up on his list of those who assigned proxies.

    So everyone would KNOW how others are voting! I guess that's the end of the secret vote (although there are many methods that can be used to maintain personal privacy).

    Actually lobbying would be NEUTRALIZED, because the lobbyists would have to lobby every voter! Lobbying a proxy won't do shit if nobody gives that proxy their votes!

    If there is a popular proxy and lobbyists try to influence their vote on an issue, if they change their stance before an election they will either lose their proxy votes, or they'll be deauthorized as a proxy, and possibly prosecuted.

    In fact we could even assign VIRTUAL PROXIES! Not a person who can be lobbied, but an automated voter controlled proxy. You could have an ad hoc group of voters who think the same way on an issue create a virtual proxy to vote according to the common ground expressed by that group.

    In addition, you won't just have 400+ reps and 100 senators to lobby, there could be thousands, even millions of proxies registered.

    That's why I say it's the People who SHOULD be lobbied! So big corporations would have to have ad campaigns thru the various media if they want anything changed. And various groups could easily and publically challenge big business and other lobbyists, thus diluting their effect on the PEOPLE.

    Thus the PEOPLE have the power and any change is going to come thru their votes, not lobbying, not representatives, etc.

    You could actually say that those ad hoc citizen groups will become the NEW lobbyists.

    They can attract voters with their stand on certain issues. As more citizens join the group, they add to the strength of their proxy vote.

    Can you see how this process of putting power back in the hands of citizens eliminates all the BULLSHIT we have now, and puts corporations under the control of the PEOPLE, instead of the other way around!

    This would also decentralize the power in the US. With power invested in citizens groups & proxies around the country, we need have no fear of someone getting too much power or taking over our Federal gov't.

    I think this idea could be implemented either on a local level or the Federal level. It might be wise to leave the state system intact at first to continue to provide services that are needed everyday until the system is perfected.

    I think one of the first priorities for the new system would be to vote on a new taxation setup. Probably a flat tax would be popular among the PEOPLE.

    See this is the kind of revolution I'm talking about. Totally peaceful, lead by the PEOPLE, taking full advantage of modern technology to rule ourselves instead of the corrupt, antiquated, obsolete "representative" form of gov't we have now.
     
  19. newo

    newo Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

    When the shit really hits the fan, and not a moment sooner. At least in the U.S. anyway. Whether it be by an ecological crisis leading to crop failure and mass hunger, or an economic recession worse than the great depression, that's what it would take to get us off our collective butts. If third world conditions are forced upon us only then will we rise up. And if things continue on their current course then such disasters are not just possible but likely.
     

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