Hitting the ceiling

The debt ceiling is the credit card limit of the nation. Much like my x wives , the ceiling means nothing to oby. Spend, spend , spend was their mantra and still is . Regardless , of dismal economic winds , the boat remains in the driveway and the beers are in the fridge.

This "ceiling" is NOT related to income or ability to pay your bills ; unless you use the "credit card". Separate funds were created for military , social security, medicare , pensions etc. We just won't have the $ to give away to other countries. Does that bum you out? Much like a suburban "stay at home" spouse , oby seems desirous of a limitless ceiling. Kick that can, again. Why? All this rhetoric about not paying the military or SS is BS. Fear tactics. Straight from Chicago style politics. Saul Alinsky at his absolute worst.

Not raising the debt ceiling will not cause default. Just like the shutdown ; rhetoric. Only 15% of the gubmint is "missing". Do you miss them? I don't. If barry would return the handles from the drinking fountains at national sites we would not even realize that overweight toll collectors have gone to happy hour. They get back pay , folks.

Point being , same as sequestration , shutdown etc. the world won't end when we limit spending ; who knows? We might wake up one day and realize we truly have been overtaxed.

 

Actually it will cause default, I don't know where you get the notion that going over the debt ceiling DOESN'T cause default.

(Note: actually I do, but it's a few Republicans that are floating the notion that we have enough cash on hand to prioritize payments)

IN theory, okay fine I see where that idea kinda sprouts from.

In practice though given that we only have 2 days, it's not practical and it's also not addressing the reality that most payments are controlled by computer programs that are designed to pay bills in the order they are received, NOT based on arbitrary priority.

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Therefore going over the debt ceiling does mean DEFAULT for the U.S.A., the Tea Party Republicans (like yourself since you seem to be adopting their rhetoric) are not understanding what this means.

It can't be blamed on Obama either, as it's not the executive branch's job to pass a budget, and appropriate funding. That's CONGRESS and CONGRESS ALONE!


http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/breakout/debt-deadline-approaches-happen-u-defaults-175536720.html

RIP, start reading financial stuff. Then you'll begin to understand why the private sector (almost all the sectors of the economy that depend on cash flow of the financial system)

HATE this gridlock in D.C.

Also you need to understand defaulting, doesn't stop the U.S.A. from accumulating more debt.

Not raising the debt ceiling is NOT equivalent to an individual STOPPING the use of their credit card.

 

Incorrect. So called entitlements to US citizens are derived from their own funds all of the afore mentioned SS , Medicare etc. even Military are from other unrelated entities. Credit Limits are totally unrelated . A debt ceiling is only that a ceiling. I have read your link. Very condecsending to American fiscal autonomy. Oddly, the deadline is Oct. 31 ; I still don't get harry reid. Never will. The last sentence of your link hits it. "a long way before a catastrophe". All right . From my last inquiry ; Congress still refuses to go on obycare themselves. One of the remaining "sticky" points. What is it about obyscare that even his own plebes refuse to submit?

 

So, what should be done instead?

 

Nothing until oby decides to enroll himself and his own in his program. Rule of Law.

 

My prediction:
When the US defaults, China and Russia will begin to sell off their dollars, other nations and private investors will follow, the world loses complete faith in the US dollar and it is soon rendered completely worthless. So long, US dollar. The rest of the world will, of course, be shaken by this, but it will carry on much like before except China is now undisputed #1 superpower. Business as usual is in everybody's best interest, but a global economy dominated by the American dollar is obviously an impossibility.

Enjoy your economic apocalypse.

 

I know right? Isn't that the same result that America would go through, if say what the far Right is saying about a diluted Dollar anyway because of inflation?

The end result is the same then if this is true, so then why not go the route that buys the country the most time to reorganize the budget and tax code without shaking up the markets so much. (Stock market -133 points today)


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@Riptide, no I'm sorry but you are incorrect. The ceiling/limit whatever you want to call it authorizes the Treasury to pay the bills we've already accumulated.

And we might have some time before it becomes a "GLOBAL catastrophe", but it will be felt immediately in higher interests rates and higher NATIONAL interests rates on our ability to borrow money and on the national debt we owe already.

Even the mention of NOT raising the debt limit, has already cost the nation billions in interest on the debt we do owe.

 

Agree. I think most people are seriously underestimating what's happening.

 

cop out?

 

I know this is Maddow again but I think she does a great job summarizing the history of 2 other instances in which the U.S.A. Political structure tried to dick around with the debt-ceiling OR get close to the debt ceiling, and therefore explains the budget consequences with doing either as history has shown us.



http://www.nbcnews.com/id/26315908/#53281430


Agreed Monkey Boy.

 

If I was someone important in the Chinese government, I would consider this the perfect time. With the impending default and the incompetence of the US government, it is apparent the US economy is done for, it's just a matter of the world catching on.

China's problem is that its exports are all invested in the US so the value of what they produce is measured in dollars. Fairly easily remedied I'd say; their economy is boosting, it can take a hit. They buy gold and other resources with all their dollars. They use their $ bonds to buy into companies worldwide, now the companies' product is sold in yuan, their staff is paid in yuan. Oil and gold is valued in yuan and euro, maybe pound or the exporting country's currency. The people who were paid massive amount of US dollars for their share of various businesses, have no more power on the international market, and are only worth as much they hold in £, €, ¥, 元 (that's yuan - might as well learn what it looks like) and currencies of other stable economies.

It may not go down quite like that, and it may take longer. The US dollar may still hold value for a long time if the Chinese should wish it so. But there is nothing concrete to back up the value of a US dollar. Fort Knox is empty.

A change is inevitable. It could take decades, still, but this seems like the perfect time for the Chinese - and whoever else is in time - to capitalize on their $ while it still holds value, destroying it in the process.

 

I don't think they have enough food or females. Jimmy, Are you a sino-phile?

 

Nope, just a realist.
They are definitely not lacking for people of any gender or food.

Are you capable of ever making a valid point?

 

Why would anyone be a cheerleader for a society promoting infanticide and slave labor? Just askin. Are you OK?

Additionally , let's take a moment and read the 14 th Amendment. Just with anything else ; pay your bills .

 

And that 14th Amendment better be speaking to the Tea Party Republicans, and whatever is left of the moderate republicans the rest of them call RINOS.

The Debt Ceiling should never ever be used as leverage for any political issue. If it needs to be raised it should be raised without fanfare, and that gives the US Dollar stability on the global markets.

To do short-term budgeting like what's been suggested by Republicans recently is like going stop-and-go on the highways, it wastes gas/cash in a more inefficient way than one would if they maintained one speed.

 

And now a word from PUBLIUS, (James Madison) as he wrote in the Federalist No. 58.

"The House of Representatives cannot only refuse, but they alone can propose, the supplies requisite for the support of government. They, in a word, hold the purse that powerful instrument by which we behold, in the history of the British Constitution, an infant and humble representation of the people gradually enlarging the sphere of its activity and importance, and finally reducing, as far as it seems to have wished, all the overgrown prerogatives of the other branches of the government. This power over the purse may, in fact, be regarded as the most complete and effectual weapon with which any constitution can arm the immediate representatives of the people, for obtaining a redress of every grievance, and for carrying into effect every just and salutary measure.

 

Well then I guess this is the end of the America's superpower economically speaking.

The Greek Philosophers were right, democracy makes for a stupid rule, rather than a wise one.

The representatives in the house who are the tea partiers have populaces that don't understand economics and believe lies and rhetoric and so the problem has become cyclical, only entrenching the gridlock.

 

1. That came and went once the U.S. government became the world's superspender.

2. I believe the founders pointed that out in the beginning when creating a Constitution based republic in which neither a majority nor a minority would rule.

3. You can actually state that seriously, seeing how much the Federal, State and local debts have grown and are even more rapidly growing today, along with the governments, Federal, State, and local, themselves putting figures to the amount of unfunded liabilites that now exist and too are growing?

 

You're missing the point completely, as usual.
It's not about being an advocate for anyone. It doesn't have to be China that rises to the throne, it's just the most likely. Nor am I glorifying their society at all - I'm saying that they are in an economical position to destroy the US$, but even if they choose not to, the US$ will fall all on its own. I just hope it happens sooner rather than later, so the world can be on its way to recovery.

You're one of those people who, if someone said they were against the invasion of Iraq or Afghanistan, you'd say "So you support the terrorists?"
Aren't you?
And you ask me if I'm ok.. lol.
Are you really so blind?

I'm expecting another evasion of the points I argue, with another failed attempt at wit, likely followed by another ridiculous attempt to undermine my credibility. Please spare yourself that and come back when you're ready to talk with the adults like an adult.

 

Indie why do you persist in pump out crap like a damaged sewage pipe? I mean you know you’ve never been able to defend them from criticism?

We have been through this many many many times…how aboutThe Decline and Fall of the America Empire: Part One 1945-
http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/s...?t=435209&f=36

But as has been shown many many many times you want a minority to have the greater power and influence you want wealth to rule.

Virtually everything you wish to promote would increase the power of wealth (you’ve even suggested given it greater voting rights) a charge you have never been able to refute, you instead evade, run away or lie.

Oh hells bells again -

When the US was doing well economically was in the period from the end of WWII to the rise of neoliberal ideas. During that period the top tax rate was much higher (94% in 1945) and the national debt was reduced from the war time high of 117% of GDP to a reasonable 32.5% in 81.

But in the thirty odd years of free market/neoliberal ideas there was a huge increase in the wealth of a few while the real term incomes of those below have either stagnated or fallen. While the policies pursued have also caused a ballooning of the national debt and brought about a social and political system where wealth has gained great power and influence.

The problem I see with right wing libertarian ideas…is that it would most likely increase the power and influence of wealth while making life worse for most people in society through the implementation of even greater neoliberal policies.

And again -

After WWII the US’s national debt was up to around 117% of GDP it was brought down in just 36 years less than one generation (by 1981 it was down to 32.5%) until successive right wing and neo-liberal policies (tax cuts and anti-communist military spending) from the 1980 onward increased it cumulating in the profligate spending and tax cuts of the Bush Admin. At the same time the free market ideology (deregulation, hollowing out of manufacturing and a belief that the ‘new’ markets were safe) set up the financial sector for a fall and has caused the debt to rise to around 80-90% of GDP.

The problem isn’t ‘government’ the problem is a right wing, wealth supported, neo-liberal, free market ideology that hijacked the system.

Try - The Decline and Fall of the America Empire: Part One 1945-
http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/s...?t=435209&f=36

Fall in top rate tax
1945 - 94%
1970 – 70%
1982 - 50%
1990 - 28%
2010 – 33%

Rise in top levels of pay
In the 1950’s CEO pay was 25-50 times that of an average worker that had risen to 300-500 times by 2007.
A bigger gap than any other developed nation.

Trade deficit
1960 – Trade surplus of 3.5 billion
2008 – Trade deficit of 690 billion
(The last time the US posted a trade surplus was in 1975)

Decline in manufacturing
1965 - Manufacturing accounted for 53% of the US’s economy.

Basically in the main the ideas of the right have been the cause of American decline