He's not gonna be saying the pledge of allegiance

So, for a while I've been thinking about when my son (2 yrs, 4 months old- as many of you well know by now), goes to kindergarten and the pledge of allegiance.

In the U.S., for anyone who doesn't know, what happens is the children stand up like sheep every morning and put their right hand over their heart- which is a really scary- Nazi style or North Korean style stance, if you ask me...
And repeat in unison, like drones...
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

And. I am NOT down with that. Yeah, I did it. Everyone did when I was in school. In high school there was one kid in my homeroom who refused to do it (actually I had stopped saying it too, but neways...) and I always looked up to him. It's all a part of the early, indoctrination of children so they become mindless, sheeple, obedient to this country- following what they are told.. not thinking for themselves. Believing the U.S. is greater than other countries and they are special for having being born here... believing they should go, possibly, die for this country. And it INFURIATES me. Kindergarten (age 5 or 6) is way too young to start this shit, which should be optional anyways...

In any case, they don't actually HAVE to do it. They can just stand there. But I don't think a lot of people know that.
I'm gonna have my son NOT do it... altho it sucks I have to explain to him why, at age 5, I'm having him stand out as different than his peers..

Any thoughts on this?

 

Wow, that is indeed scary. I wasn't aware your country was that backwards.

 

Ask your son if he wants to or not?

 

Well, do they do anything like that over there?

And yea... well, it's one of those things- you're around it going up allll through school so it doesn't hit you til later how strange and scary it is. And then you look back (I do anyways- a lot of people still think this behavior, this ritual is normal) and realize it is actually a really creepy practice. And just what they are trying to do to the kids..

 

Yeah, well, see, I don't wanna be the strange liberal parent who ends up turning my son into a raging conservative (on social issues) republican to rebel against me. Haha.

But I don't know if a 5 year old can understand it enough for me to "ask" him. I may tell him not to do it and if he wants to when he is old enough to make that sort of decision, then that is his decision to make.

 

No, nothing like that is done here. People would surely not accept it and would tell them to fuck of with their backwards propaganda.

 

Hello,

we gave up on that in 1945. Except for the people in Eastern Germany, they were allowed to experience this kind of fun till 1989.

Well, you put a lot of pressure on your son. I don't know much about kids, but I think it's better for now to let him do all the rituals all the other kids do. Just make sure that he learns to think and that here is a world outside the USA with people that might have different ideals and believes.

Regards
Gyro

 

i think us europeans tend to be altogether less comfortable with that kind of thing. it didn't end too well last time.

seriously, wat the fuck? if i had a kid i'd tell 'em where to stick that shit.

 

Man, I remember we used to get in trouble for not doing it because we were "blessed" to have the right to say that pledge every day. And if you didn't stand for the pledge, the national anthem, or the school song at mandatory pep rallies, you'd get your ass dragged out by the scariest coach (he kinda looked like Kevin Bacon after some scary ass science experiment). Not exactly sure what happened after that, I just kind of pantomimed the moves to blend in, lol. But by god, I would NOT stand for the piece of shit football team. Fuck them, they couldn't even win a game.

 

You didn't know we have to do that here? lol Yeah I remember pledging allegiance every morning before school starts.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. Upbringing is so much more a factor, and the fact that you won't be taking that kind of shit seriously, and yet do not do it yourselves, may be the best thing for him to see. Who knows -- maybe he will stop doing it of his own accord. That would be something.

 

we sing the national anthem in elementary and high schools, but we don't pledge allegiance to anyone.

 

THIS :sunny:

http://ralston2013.com/politics/how-creepy-is-the-pledge-of-allegiance/

 

makes fart noises with arm pit to the tune of the pledge..

 

Wow, I had no idea about this.

As far as I am aware nothing similar to this happens in any european country.

 

People who grow up in the U.S. don't realize how much they are indoctrinated into a nationalistic fervor. Sometimes it requires living outside the U.S. for a time and looking back on it from the outside to see it. It's difficult to undo that socialization. Some people get jerked out of it by events such as frivolous wars where they lose family members. Then they start to question things. For many people, they stay in that nationalistic mindset and keep defending it not even knowing why they are doing it.

It would be better if the school system itself wasn't so fervent in promoting that type of socialization. It's not like the whole student body is going to revolt and become corrupt and unmanageable. The people running the schools seem afraid that they are going to lose control of the students without that nationalistic socialization.

 

except for legal shit

when they bring out the bible and pledge the Queen (affidavits,oaths etc..)

 

Yeah, I knew ppl had to do that here. Of course. I went to school here.

 

Thanks.

 

particularly odd, to an outsider, is the way americans accuse each other of being "anti-american"

i don't think there's many european countries where you could do the same, like, if italians called each other anti-italian, without other people thinking it was a luaghable insult or writing you off as a right-wing whack-job.

 

People in this country are really indoctrinated and indoctrinated early to see "America" (it's North America!) as different and special. - In order to make you obedient to this country later in life... and for most people, it works. It really reminds me much of North Korea- only worse because it's so well hidden (to most).