Well Many christians wander into agnosticism and athiesm and 'dog' us for weeks. So oocam returns the favour. Jesus, the god of love, does not torture Hell is gratuitous torture to no end purpose. Admit it, Hell is the 'stick' Heaven the 'carrot'. It's all a purely human power strategy. There may well be souls. And there may well be a place that such go after the failure of the mortal body. But there are not TWO places a soul can go based on some arbitary moral standard in mortal life. Such thinking is not thinking , but adherence to trash dogma. Conditioning. In 40 years, no human has ever been able to justify the concept of hell in arguement with occam. Yet still you try to scare your children into line with stories of fire and brimstone. Instead of talking to them rationally. "Two things are infinite The universe, and human stupidity" Einstein [and he believed in god] Occam
I am not quite sure what your point was, but I'll respond. Hell is not literal fire and brimstone, but merely uses those terms to describe what hell is *like*. Hell is like heaven in that it is a state of existence (though it might also be a physical place) where your shame, disgrace, and anguish are completely consuming (perhaps to the point where physical pain comes as a side-effect). What do you think?
Since this thread is on the open board...I guess I'm not hijacking your discussion? Regarding your take on hell: -The Bible uses literal terms to describe it, why would it be different? -The psychological/physical state you describe exists in this life; one doesn't have to die or go anywhere to experience it.
Not at all. Because what determines how "literal" a statement was depends on the literary and cultural context. For example, we talk about the sun rising and setting. Example: The sun rose at 7 AM and set at 8 PM. The sun rises and sets on my wife. The sun rose and set on the kings reign. None of these are literal (meaning *actual*). In reality, the earth rotates while the sun's position remains constant (relatively speaking). However, due to contextual clues, I am sure that you are capable of determining what is actually meant by the above sentences. So, when we read about hell (or anything really) in the Bible, we have to look for literary and contextual clues to help determine what the speaker meant. Let's look at some of the descriptions: [font="]“And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt[/font][font="].[/font][font="] (Dan 12.2) [/font][font="] I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. [/font][font="] 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”[/font][font="] (matt 8.11ff)[/font] [font="]As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.[/font][font="] (matt 13.40)[/font][font="] [/font][font="]Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. [/font][font="] 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.[/font][font="] (Matt 13.47)[/font][font="] [/font][font="]Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’[/font][font="] (matt 22.13)[/font][font="] [/font][font="]But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49 and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.[/font][font="] (matt 24.48ff)[/font][font="] [/font][font="]Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. 29 For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 30 And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth[/font][font="] (matt 25.28ff)[/font] [font="]There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God[/font][font="]. (Luke 13.28ff)[/font] These are descriptive of *anguish and torment*, but not of horrific torture. There are also literary contexts of hyperbole and overstatement, with which the Bible and the Gospels are filled. It was quite standard practice in biblical Israel, the rabbinic writers, and on the lips of Jesus. Many of the teachings on Hell fall into this style. Also, there is an amazing fact that needs to be pondered (although it cannot be used too strongly in this argument): the word for suffering in the NT is NEVER used in any passages speaking of hell/gehenna or of the people entering therein...I find this exceptionally odd, since hell is consistently described by moderns as a place of "intense suffering"...[font="] There is also a methodological problem hiding in here, and it concerns what 'final hell' is really like. Too much of the scant information we have deals with the intermediate state (between the first death and subsequent pre-judgment resurrection), which is not very supportive of Dante-level (torturouse) views of hell. And the few references to 'final hell' (gehenna) contain NO DESCRIPTIONS of what happens 'there'. So as one scholar put it:[/font][font="]"In contrast with later Christian writings and ideas, the torments of hell are not described in the NT"[/font] And C.S. Lewis would agree with you. However, we are not talking about mere guilt or anxiety here. We are talking about unending anguish at God turning His back on those that dwell in the state of Hell. Anyway, this is really an aside. Death is the point where our actions and choices are ratified by God. That we get some foretaste of heaven and hell in this life is to be expected.
SO, what that all means is that the word HELL is never spoken by jesus? Didnt think so. Jesus was way too smart to talk of such crap. Hell has an audience of about 4 billions Thats how many truely stupid people there are. Is occam arrogant? Not at all.he wishes there were NO stupid people. Then maybe the future occam wants to see happen would happen far faster. and with less death.[one where humanity flourishes] Unfortunately, reality is what it is. Occam
I think Hell is simply the eternal realization of our greatest fears and sadness.....I guess I'll find out.
Just because He never used the *word* doesn't mean that He never talked about it. He talked about gehenna (and used the word) where the worm doesn't die and the fire isn't quenched. He also spoke of non-believers being cast into the outer darkness. Hyperbolic language, but the reality of Hell isn't hyperbolic, only the descriptions of it. So, He *did* talk about it. But not as a place of unending torture, but of unending *shame and disgrace*. Your (and *far too many* Christians') concept of Hell is not what scripture teaches but has been influenced by Dante more than the the Bible itself.
I appreciate your comprehensive and thoughtful reply...thanks. You mentioned to Occam that our vision of hell has been shaped more by Dante than the Bible; I'll also add that the visual arts of Dante's general period were quite imaginative and influential in that regard ...Michelangelo, Bosch, and Breugel come right to mind and there were plenty of others. Hell was a favorite painter's subject. I'd guess that just about every local church of any means had a very scary original or two hanging conspicuously. Re "Weeping and Gnashing of Teeth"...you mentioned seven instances of that phrase. I didn't know that there were so many. I had to laugh...that was one of my mom's favorite admonitions for just about anything, i.e., "(make an A on that math test) or there'll be weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth!". She added the "wailing".
Care to explain why that is a load of crap? I wish I could claim the below as my own, but it is an excerpt from a more lengthy article found here: http://www.tektonics.org/uz/2muchshame.html [size=-0] [/size]"The 'logic' of hell in the bible is surprisingly simple: You receive back the treatment/effects you gave other agents (including God and yourself) with some kind of multiplier effect. [The bible is full of images of this reciprocity concept: reaping what you sow, being paid back, suffering loss as you had despoiled others, unkindness for unkindness shown, apathy for apathy rendered, 'eye for an eye', proportional judgement, etc] You dishonor God; you receive dishonor in return. Appropriately your required response is to acknowledge your own need -- in effect, giving up your "honor" -- by admitting that you need God's help to pay the debt.[size=-0] [/size]C. S. Lewis wrote a book titled The Great Divorce in which Hell is depicted as a microscopic world that is smaller than a piece of dirt in heaven (though inhabitants do not realize this except by a special "bus trip" to heaven). Within that microscopic world, people constantly get tired of the company of others and move themselves farther and farther out into the "boondocks" away from others. Napoleon is presented as having done this, and two modern travellers who go to his house arrive to find him pacing back and forth muttering over his failures, for which he blames everyone else. Lewis was on to something here, even though he did not mention an honor-shame dialectic. The person who is ashamed cannot come into the presence of God, but would indeed be driven away from it by the very nature of the dialectic, seeking to get as far away from the presence of the greatest glory and honor as possible. Literally speaking, "Hell" would be a life on the lam -- always trying to get yourself further and further from God's holiness, but because God is omnipresent, and because in Him all things move and have their being, never being able to succeed." You see? The punishment for sin isn't primarily pain and physical agony, it's shame and dishonor. Sin is an honor offense against God. Suitable punishment would be stripping of honor in return. That is exactly what Hell is. A permanent status of complete dishonor. As Iago said "[size=-1]... he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him And makes me poor indeed." [/size]
It's all just a way of conditioning the masses as someone else put it. It could be just one big conspiracy and the reverse is the better. By that i mean, the devil and hell may be good and god and his followers are the deceivers "Better the devil you know"
Alsharad Read your reply.. Still a load of crap. Hell is where 'dishonorable' people go? There is no hell , so nobody goes anywhere. Your pathetic attempt to 'water down' hell is just that, pathetic. Occam
You still don't get it. The language used in scripture is hyperbolic. Not only that, but it is relational more than physical. Look, here is your initial complaint: "Jesus, the god of love, does not torture Hell is gratuitous torture to no end purpose. Admit it, Hell is the 'stick' Heaven the 'carrot'. It's all a purely human power strategy. There may well be souls. And there may well be a place that such go after the failure of the mortal body. But there are not TWO places a soul can go based on some arbitary moral standard in mortal life." So, I gave you a biblical picture of hell that is *not* torture, nor is it even a specific location that is separated from the "good" people. You then responded with basically "what a load of crap." You won't let go of your straw-man. You have defined what you think "Christians" believe that hell is and then you say it doesn't exist. Well, you have seen what I and other Christian believe hell is, and your argument fails against ours because your "gratuitous torture" and "two places a soul can go" pictures are inaccurate. So, you have been presented a concept of hell that is biblical, fair, and not subject to any of your objections. You will need a better response than "it's crap, Hell doesn't exist".
No You wont let go of YOUR STRAW MAN. The principle of parsimony. All things being equal. the 'least' complex answere is most likely true. The least complex answer is that we die. The end Are you scared of this? Occam is not Occam exists through no effort of his own. A gift of existance was given him by circumstance. And he is not so fucking greedy to spend his life trying to justify more for himself. If he only gets one life. so what? Its more than he had when he had no life. Spend the time you have living, not trying to justify that you get more than you have. Occam
Huh? What straw man is that? That hell exists? Or the nature of that existence (as a relationship more than a place)? Usually a straw man is a false facimile of your argument that I disassemble in order to "win". But I haven't even attacked your argument, I have undermined it by giving you an alternate, but equally biblical and logical, concept of hell that is not subject to your "eternal torture" objections. Parsimony is a logical fallacy. It *can* be used with precision when dealing with detailed specifics, but not in broad sweeping strokes. Your theory of death being the end does NOT have equal explanatory power to the theory that something about people exists beyond death until you expand your theory's complexity to account for near death and post-death experiences.
I hope that eventually mankind will come to the realization that the heaven/hell dichotomy alluded to in the Bible was merely a metaphor for the quality of life that results from everyone following the Golden Rule. This is the core message of the Bible, the rest is, put succinctly, an attempt by the elite literati of the time to distort and elaborate the message as a means to control the masses.
