Graduated Minimum Wage?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by cozmo_g, Sep 3, 2013.

  1. cozmo_g

    cozmo_g Is Out Of This World

    So, I was thinking about the employment situation in the U.S. while having my morning smoke and wanted to get a conversation going about minimum wage. My opinion is that there should be a graduated minimum wage. The biggest complaint that conservatives seem to have is that 'real adults' shouldn't be working entry level jobs because an adult level salary will skew things unfavorably when you have teenager's income at such a high level. This would drive up prices. It doesn't make sense to me because those teenagers are still part of the economy and are more likely to spend instead of save. But, what if we set a minimum wage based upon age? Let's say we keep it where it is for those under 18. Then, at 18 it becomes $10/hr. At 21, it goes up to $12/hr. Then, for college grads, it's $15/hr. Surely someone that has been in the workforce for longer has more experience than an entry level teenager. Plus, we tend to have more expenses as we get older. This system works pretty well with things like driving, voting, alcohol and cigarettes, insurance and even military service. I'd love to hear opinions about the pros and cons of such an arrangement.

    Here's a few helpful links:

    A Graduated Minimum Wage with Optimal Taxation

    This is an article talking about how many college grads are working minimum wage jobs:

    284,000 College Graduates Had Minimum-Wage Jobs Last Year
  2. NoxiousGas

    NoxiousGas Old Fart

    One big problem with that approach, it's illegal to inquire about somebody's age and a graduated system based on age/education such as this would only increase age discrimination in the hiring process.
    College graduates already earn more on average than employees without a degree.
    The complaint about adults working entry level jobs is solely because of the fucked economy and the loss of jobs.
    I've met an Engineer with a PHD and a MS who had to work at Carl's because he got laid off after 16 years at the same place. I promise he would much rather be doing what he was educated for, but ya got's to pay the bills.

    So aside form breaking federal labor laws, maybe, but I doubt it would solve anything.
  3. cozmo_g

    cozmo_g Is Out Of This World

    I'm not sure I understand about it being illegal to ask someone's age, as there is a spot on the application for your date of birth. Age discrimination tends to have more to do with people being too old (a misconception at best, and true discrimination at worst). We already pay people based upon experience, and in general, a person gains more work experience as they age, so why not factor that in? At the end of the day, we're talking about laws, which can and should be changed to suit the needs of the people (civil rights, etc.) so these are not immutable laws of nature, but statutes, mind you, created in the courts of our government.

    A living, progressive wage would go a long way towards making our society more functional. Take a look around at the other first world countries that enjoy a much more progressive and humanistic approach to labor rights and see the truth: the U.S. is one of the worst work environments by almost any metric. That is, unless you're a CEO.
  4. rjhangover

    rjhangover Senior Member

    It's sad that $16.00 an hours is now barely above poverty wages these days, but that's capitalism. And it bothers me that employees want those wages, even when they can't count correct change, or get a simple burger and fries order right. "Oh, you didn't want onions on your burger? Sorry."
    The problems in U.S. society critically flawed. Kids go through twelve years of school, and can't read or do simple math. Higher education puts the youth in debt for life, unless they have rich parents. College, especially masters or doctorate degrees are becoming for the rich only.
    The last three republican presidents destroyed the middle class, sending all the decent paying jobs to China, so that middle aged parents have to take Mcjobs away from the kids in high school. Cons have succeeded in the creation of a vast peasant class. We are quickly becoming like Mexico, where 95% are peasant, and 5% own everything.CEO's make 600 times what their employees make.
    With a $15 trillion national debt, politicians and corporations have enslaved the whole world. Paying that debt off at $30 billion per month would take 1,500 years.
    There's no cure for what ails the U.S., or the rest of the world for that matter. Government is the BEAST that enslaved the whole world. Media is the FALSE PROPHET that fooled everyone into going along with the BEAST. And the ANTICHRIST is the corporations that run the government.
    Welcome to the tribulation. And since Jesus hasn't made it back in over two thousand years, his spaceship must have taken him to a better world.
  5. Gongshaman

    Gongshaman Modus Lascivious

  6. cozmo_g

    cozmo_g Is Out Of This World

    BANKERS, friend. They are the ones to blame for this debacle. You and I well know that the fiat currency we currently use is worthless paper created to steal real assets, including life and labor.

    The other radical idea that could and should be explored is the notion that we need actual human beings to perform these menial tasks in the first place. Imagine a world where dangerous or menial or repetitive labor could be done by machine. Do you think that is a good or bad idea?

    On a philosophical note, we're the only species that competes for resources when we don't have to, because we have the technology to provide a quality of life that will feed, clothe and shelter every human on the planet. Money has been proven to be the poorest motivator for humans. I read somewhere that people who have to worry about money actually lose intelligence due to having part of their mental 'bandwidth' consumed with working out how they will provide the basic necessities to live.

    Poverty is a crime against humanity. There, I said it.
  7. Piney

    Piney Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

    Companies are downgrading jobs to part time. perhaps they feel the threat of government impositions that will increase costs.

    What to do to encourage full time work and better pay?

    Companies are given a write-off on the real estate costs for tax and interest, diminish this write-off in favor of enhanced write-off for payroll tax expenses, for full time employees

    How about time and a half for Saturdays and Sundays.

    How about and employer payroll-tax holiday for hours worked over 40 hours?
  8. Piney

    Piney Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

    Looks like the City of Washington D.C. just reversed a regulation requiring Big Box stores like Wall Mart to pay a Min Wage of $12.00 per Hr.

    Wall-Mart was about to cancel construction of new stores there.

    wondering what Wall-Mart starts employees at? what is the spread?
  9. monkjr

    monkjr Senior Member

    You have gotten really close to my understanding of the cryptic meaning behind the mark of the beast, being 666. (It being in the right hand or the forehead).

    It's a philosophy (hence it being in the forehead), and it's in your right hand because how you see the world determines what actions you'll take with your symbolic right (righteous) hand.

    And nobody may buy or sell without adopting that philosophy and course of actions.


    Meh anyway the above was just my response to your post.

    @Piney, companies in varying degrees were already showing trends to demoting 'full time' workers to 'part time' anyway during the Bush years. Of course the "varying degrees" part depended on what sector/industry of the economy you worked in, but overall it was happening in hospitals, high tech jobs, and manufacturing the most at the highest rates.
    (outsourcing or robots also contributed to this trend)

    This whole minimum wage resulting in people going into part time status FROM former full time status is just a convenient excuse the rich use on the poor and general masses to scare them into not supporting the minimum wage so their company can maximize their profits.

    (Usually with the reason they give is that they have to protect their shareholders, but I laugh because that never happens during downturn economy years because the middle class shrunk and they can't move product because nobody can afford it but the rich, thus the problem becomes cyclical)

    The only counterargument I think makes sense, is that corporations just raise the price on their service/product to make up for the minimum wage increase, so really they punt the issue of eating into any of their profits.
  10. 6-eyed shaman

    6-eyed shaman Sock-eye salmon

    Pay raises should go to devoted employees who excell in work performance. Not to old farts. Besides this would be age discrimination, and employers would be more likely to hire the young ones who cost less. Therefore making it more difficult for older workers to find a job.
  11. *Yogi*

    *Yogi* Resident Racist

    The original post, is plain and pure communism churched up. The 'obamanite' way this day and age.

    Education is for kids who are smart, Want to be the boss and own things. You actually have to do some of the work and test/finals.
    Not for the rich only either, If you don't qualify for scholarships off the bat, If you are/were smart enough to get a diploma, At 24 IIRC you qualify for free federal grants. They cover pretty much all, At every level from CC to get an AA all the way to a university.
    Where a lot of these 'debts' are coming from are the 'student loans' they take out for beer, Weed, Clothers, Flat screen etc. When you have a higher school bill, You qualify for more student loan $$ and if you have a kid, Even more.

    Its the 'lavish' lifestyle that they are living, Is the problem. Until there is a real POTU again, Flippin burgers is all you will get to meet the welfare/assistance cut for the way people milk the system.
    Nothing wrong when you need it, But when you have 22" wheels on a newer caddy and EBT cards, Or a lifted 4 door diesel on 40" tires with a EBT, That's the main problem. Milkers!

    Plus if you have an education, You would know that it was slick willy (bill clinton) who sold us out in 96'/NAFTA. That's when you could 'outsource' and cut a 1/2 the workforce to have Mexicans and china do it for pennys.
  12. YouFreeMe

    YouFreeMe Visitor

    Yogi, I feel as though you read an anti poor people propaganda packet and are regurgitating the things you read there.

    For every poor person living the "lavish" lifestyle that you are talking about, there are 4 who are genuinely struggling to survive. There are countless families in the US living in poverty. I was in one of them for many years. I was lucky enough to receive financial aid and be able to claw my way up the income ladder. It sure as hell wasn't easy and there were many nights I went to bed hungry. Without government assistance I don't know where me or my family would be.

    Not everyone is as lucky as I was. The things you say reflect serious detachment. Not everyone has the same strengths and advantages that you have had. Not all "smart kids" get an eduction. It doesn't always work out that way. If you really think that everyone has an equal chance at success, you are drinking the kool-aid. Wake up.
  13. *Yogi*

    *Yogi* Resident Racist

    I think you have had way too much Kool-Aid and need to open you're eyes. You are the one buying into the bullshit.

    Tell me how, Less a felon and drug offences, Can not get a education at age 24?
    All you have to do is fill out the paper work. Know what you are filling out, Check the correct boxes. Its not that hard if you can follow instruction and have a clean background.
  14. usedtobehoney

    usedtobehoney Senior Member

    Yogi, I think she's talking about being on government assistance and not going to college. In order to get on government assistance you have to fill out a lot of forms and go through a lot of different requirements. I've known people who really need the assistance but couldn't get to the place or location at the time required for them to jump through all the hoops or couldn't stay there all day because they actually worked and it takes quite awhile to get through the approval level sometimes.

    At the same time... I have also known a lot of people on government assistance who could afford food for their family for a couple weeks but the last two weeks of the month they couldn't. A lot of these people were either escaping abusive relationships, disabled or sick in some way. I believe there are some people who milk the system, but in my varied travels I have not met any of them. I have met more people who have been milked by the system.
  15. Individual

    Individual Senior Member

    A proper Minimum Wage = $ Employer is willing to pay AND employee is willing to accept.
  16. Balbus

    Balbus Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

    Oh hell man why do you repeat stuff you know you can’t defend?

    I mean we have been through this thousands of times and you haven’t been able to address the criticisms of you ideas in the past so why do you repeat this shit?

    OK to repeat this is a simplistic slogan not a rational or reasonable argument it’s about trying to distract from a complex issue rather than give enlightenment (slogans are often used by people like indie that don’t have rational or reasonable arguments).

    Thing is that there is not an equality of power and freedom between employer and employee. The gap is closer in societies with near full employment but becomes wider with high unemployment.

    The problem here is that the neoliberal ideas that many right wingers support and which began to take hold in the 1970’s onward are not about seeking full employment (as Keynesian based models are), it is about having unemployment because that is one of the means of driving down wage prices. It is the same reason why so many neoliberals oppose organised labour movements and social programmes because their removal would also increase the possibility for exploitation, as in work or starve.

    As pointed out thousands of times many people that are seeking assistance are working. People in hardship may not like the wage been offered but are more likely to accept what they can; the power is with the employer.
  17. Individual

    Individual Senior Member

    A product is being produced at a rate much greater than the demand by consumers of that product creating a growing surplus of that product. Should it be the responsibility or duty of government to tax and/or borrow in order to purchase the surplus productivity?
  18. pineapple08

    pineapple08 Members

    How is demand for products normally created?
  19. Individual

    Individual Senior Member

    A need or want are good motivators.
  20. StpLSD25

    StpLSD25 Senior Member

    In 1964 minimum wage was 5 silver quarters (worth over 26$ today; ) We don't need to fix the minimum wage, we need to abolish the Petrodollar!

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