Genetic mutations by God?

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by ImmortalDissident, Jan 10, 2005.

  1. ImmortalDissident

    ImmortalDissident Senior Member

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    This is a question coming from a non-believer. I'm not trying to argue or "prove" you wrong... it's just simply a question that I don't know what your answer would be since I have a hard time putting myself in your shoes... as I have come from a scientifically based background.

    Do you believe that God/Jesus takes part in genetic mutations?

    The reason I ask this is, we know humans have been genetically linked to other great apes, pigs and are even very similiar to mice and a certain kind of bacteria. To me, if God had created humans, their genetic make-up would not indicate (and that's all it is... indication) that humans have evolved from other species, and those from other species.

    Please, keep the peace on this one.
  2. Kharakov

    Kharakov ShadowSpawn

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    grandfather engineer, grandfather physical chemist, dad - biophysicist me.. dunno, probably mutated

    God yes. Jesus no. Why the hell would jesus want to be caught up in making mutants? Unless he did it for fun, but then, it would only be part of God's plan so...

    Look at your ideas. How do they 'evolve'? Is this because of outside forces? What if instead of saying an extremely intelligent being orchestrated these forces to mold your ideas, you said that these forces existed independantly of everything else and they are unintentional? The forces are there, whether or not the being is there, and you can call them evolutionary forces. Ultimately, the question is whether or not these forces have been put in place by a supremely intelligent being or did they just randomly poop out of nowhere?

    Your mission, if you choose to except it, is to observe reality and determine whether certain patterns that arise are just meaningless coincedence caused by stupid forces or are they evidence of an intelligence so vast that it could create a universe that follows fundamental laws that allow it to communicate with you through 'co-inky-dinks'.

    Can you even imagine a being that intelligent, something that could create fundamental laws that communicate with you in a fun and caring manner? The mental laws that govern our thoughts are very entertaining. ;)
  3. northernlehigh97

    northernlehigh97 Senior Member

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    Moses was a genius! Faced with the problem of keeping several thousand former slaves alive and healthy in an environment that would barely support a few goats, he not only succeeded in keeping them alive, he also made a nation of them. He wrote laws and established traditions of religious practice that were far superior to anything on the Earth before his coming and which are still today, far superior to most of what passes for religion and law on this planet. There is plenty of biblical evidence for evolution. We are all descended from one woman, a fact DNA studies have confirmed. But where did all the different races come from? If skin color and facial features had changed suddenly, this bizarre event would certainly have been recorded somewhere! Since no one mentioned a sudden change, we can assume skin color and facial features changed so gradually nobody realized this was occurring. That is all evolution is, the gradual changing of a species into a slightly different form.

    Some people fault the book of Genesis because it does not come right out and mention the sticky subject of "evolution" in its pages, but Moses had neither the time nor the papyrus to give us anything more than the "Reader's Digest condensed version" of Creation. That does not fault him, nor any of the scientists that try today to fill in the gaps in our knowledge. The Book of Genesis has many of the events that occurred in their correct order of occurrence indicating its Divine origin. It is hard to remember that until a few decades ago most scientists believed in the Steady State Theory of Creation as opposed to the Big Bang theory. But all those many millennia ago this meek shepherd and escapee from Egypt's mud pits knew that everything began in a sudden burst of light. It took Scientists thousands of years to begin to catch up with him!

    It is timely to point out here that the Hebrews often used the word day to mean more than just a twenty four hour length of time. When Christ made reference to The day of Solomon. He was not implying, and was not thought to be implying that King Solomon ruled only one day. St Peter also pointed out concerning the Most High, that One day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as one day. (2 Peter 3:8).Of course the Universe is considerably older than a few thousand years, but the point made still remains true.

    Also where should Moses have stopped? Maybe he should have set a blackboard up in the shadow of Mount Sinai and using his rod as a pointer gathered the people around him and lectured, OK now this is DNA and this is RNA... In all seriousness, he didn't have the time or the need for that! He was too busy founding a nation. But if the Old Testament is someone lacking in information about evolution, the New Testament, especially the parables of Christ, hint at it, sometimes rather obviously. Jesus compared the Kingdom of Heaven to a mustard seed, which though the smallest of all seeds, grows up to become a tree so big that the birds of the Heavens can nest in its branches. The word evolution originally meant growth or unfolding as in the way a seedling emerges from its seed casing and grows to become an adult plant, so in a way Jesus Christ actually teaches that the Kingdom of Heaven evolves!

    Following is a list of Christ's sayings that hint at evolution. Of course God meant these parables to teach us about the coming of the Kingdom of Heaven, but taken in their literal sense it is obvious that Jesus understood the concept of the struggle for survival and how limited resources lead to only a few organisms successfully reproducing out of the abundance of life forms that had their chance to try. What is more, He expected at least some of His audience to be familiar with the concept. Christ taught for the ages, not just for the few precious years He walked the dust of the Earth.

    Matthew 13: to Matthew 13:9. A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop-- a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. He who has ears, let him hear.

    This parable definitely teaches that out of an abundance of life forms, only a few manage to adept to their environment enough to survive to reproduce.

    Another example. Matthew 7.13. to 7:14. Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

    Again Jesus Christ teaches that out of an abundance of life forms only a few succeed in life.

    In Matthew 13:24 to 13:30, and Matthew 13: 36 to 13:43 we have all the cast members necessary to produce the play of evolution. We have 1. the life that is being shaped by evolution (the seed/sons of men) 2. the environment the Life-form is trying to adapt to (the world/field), 3. life forms that compete with the seed for the resources that exist in the environment, (the weeds/sons of the evil one), and 4, the resulting struggle for survival between competing life-forms that occurs over a great period of time. "(Let both grow together until the harvest)." In the end only one Life-form (the wheat/Sons of the Kingdom), manages to survive because it is acted on by still another Life-form (The Angel/Reapers).

    The Kingdom of Heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemies came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. The owners servants came to him and said, 'Sir didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did these weeds come from? An enemy did this, he replied. The servants asked him, Do you want us to go and pull them up? No because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.

    Matthew 13:36 to Matthew 13:43 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field. He answered, The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels . As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

    As life forms evolve, the fittest survive and increase while the less fit decrease. Christ hinted at this in Matthew 25:29. For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.

    In John 15:1 Jesus Christ taught. I Am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. ..Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If any one does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up and thrown into the fire and burned." This is a perfect description of any kind of guided evolution, rather it is being guided by God, Humankind, or even pure natural selection. Life forms (the vine) breed. The ones God/Humankind/natural selection, want to continue to live, survive. The rest are "pruned" (destroyed). Then the remaining branches continue to grow and bud (reproduce), and these buds are pruned, thus shaping those Life forms in the direction that God/Humankind/natural selection wants them to go. The Life forms (branches), that God/Humankind/natural selection, don't want to reproduce are thrown away and they wither, (fail to survive and reproduce).

    Being part of Christ definitely has survival value. Christians are much less likely to abuse alcohol, tobacco, illegal drugs or even legal drugs. They are more likely to eat right and take supplements. They believe quite correctly that their body is the temple of the Holy Spirit and they are thus more motivated to take care of themselves. They are less likely to gamble or abuse their kids. In fact they are much less likely to have any kind of bad habits that threaten their survival or the survival of their children. So abiding in the vine does result in much successful evolution.

    The great Christian writer C.S. Lewis stated in his book, Mere Christianity that everyone has been told that man has evolved from lower types of life. Consequently, people often wonder what is the next step? When is the thing beyond man going to appear?. . .Now if you care to talk in these terms, the Christian view is precisely that the Next Step has already appeared. And it really is new. It is not a change from brainy men to brainier men: It is a change that goes off in a totally different direction--a change from being creatures of God to being sons of God."

    Christ hints at an incredible future for Human kind. Often Christ referred to Himself as "the Son of Man." If He means this literally to be true, there is a strong possibility, that God Himself is our Offspring. We are the missing link between Animal and God! He is not only our Father, He is our Son!

    How can both of these startling and seemingly conflicting scenarios be true? Easy. It is the nature of life to escape any container it is placed in. Time and space are only two of the dimensions that exist. Once life escapes from the time space bubble, it is easy to enter it again at any point. Thus Life can direct its own evolution, as the Anthropic Principle indicates.

    Saint Paul pointed out that Christians are part of One Living Organism. In fact the word "church" means "Body of Christ." Jesus Christ was the "first fruits" of this Organism, (Corinthians 15:20 to 15:28), indicating that a New Life form had come into being. All Christians are various parts of this Organism. Just as single celled life forms joined together to form multicellular beings, Humans are now being bound together by the Holy Spirit to form a multi brained Being. And yet this joining together leads to more individualism, not less. One amoeba is very much like any other amoeba because each must do all the tasks that lead to its own survival. But the cells within a multicellular being can specialize and be different from their neighbors because they can depend on their neighbors to perform the functions that they cannot or will not do. Just as multicellular beings are
    controlled by the Brain of the organism, The Body Of Christ is gently controlled by the Holy Spirit. That does not mean we do not have free will. Indeed we do, but truly Born Again Holy Spirit filled Christians are aware of a Presence within them that (when we listen), guides us in the right path to take. Alas often He is not listened to, or heard. (He is a still small voice 1 Kings 19:11 to 19:12), and even the most spiritually gifted Humans are quite spiritually hard of hearing. We are a very young Organism as yet, only about 2 thousand years old, hardly in eye blink in the history of the Universe. Thousands of years from now, indeed billions or zillions of years from now, we will reach our full maturity. Ephesians 4:14 to 4:16 speaks of this future evolution. "Then we will no longer be infants tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into Him who is the Head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work." It is interesting that the Body of Christ is said here, to be "tossed back and forth by the waves." The most primitive of life forms are tossed back and forth by waves. Here is an indication of just how far we have to go yet. You can be part of this evolution by going through a conversion process commonly called "being Born Again." It is a quick and painless change in ones psyche, that results, over a period of a great amount of time to have extremely beneficial eternal consequences. The best way to explain it is to borrow from computer terminology. Our brains are like a computer's hardware system. Our souls are like the programs that the brain-computers run. Just as a computer cannot run without a program in it, our brains can not operate without a soul-program in it. Also just as a program cannot save itself, or debug itself, a soul-program cannot save or debug itself. Debugging and saving must be done by the Creator of the Program. A program that tries to debug or save itself will not succeed but will instead make a mess of things. God has given us freewill so that we can choose to refuse His help if we so chose. Most people do try to debug and save themselves without asking Him for His input.

    That is reason number one why this World is in the shape that it is in! God just won't go where He is not invited! But the only true way to be saved and debugged is to give the Fellow that wrote the program the chance to do His stuff. To do that all you have to do is, thank God for taking His anger about our faults, out on Himself, not us, ask Him to forgive you, invite Him to come into your soul-program and start debugging it, and ask Him to become Lord and Savior of your life. It's that simple. Eternal life cannot be earned. It is a gift, paid for by God with His own blood, sweat, life and tears!
  4. Epiphany

    Epiphany Copacetic

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    Look at the blind man Jesus healed (John 9). His disciples asked what sin had been committed to cause this. Jesus answered, "Neither this man nor his parents sinned."

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