Fuck Ché Guevara

Discussion in 'Communism' started by goldmund, Jan 26, 2005.

  1. goldmund

    goldmund Member

    There, I said it :). Oh, and fuck Trotsky too.

    I can't stand how these two are idealized by the left when they both contributed substaintially and personally to the murder and torture of countless people.

    I am especially suprized with the hero cult surrounding Ché. This man was a doctor, trained to save lifes. I don't know how you can go from that to murdering people with your own hands. It was Ché who was chiefly responsible for allowing nuclear missles into Cuba (he also said that if he had be in control of those missles, he would have fired them at the US), along with countless other misguided policies that people of the liberal left should dispise.

    Many will argue about the abuses suffered by peasants and the working class by those who Ché and Trotsky fought against. The countless murders perpetrated by the US and her cronnies (i.e. Pinochet, etc). This means to end arguement is perhaps one of the most dangerous and misleading political beliefs. There are other ways of combating imperialism, ingrained class structures, and poverty.
     
  2. Eugene

    Eugene Senior Member

    He led a class war. War is hell.
     
  3. goldmund

    goldmund Member

    and that justifies his adolation by the left? by us here in this forum? violence begets violence and so on. there have always been other techniques to fight social injustice.
     
  4. velvet

    velvet Banned

    True.

    But on the other hand.. if you feel very strongle about something it is understandable that you start doing things that you probably wouldn't do otherwise and although you know it isn't right, it is better than doing nothing?

    For example.. when you have kids and a teacher is surpressing them, not learning them anything, making them work extremely hard.. you try talking to the schoolboard but they don't listen because they make profit of your kids labor.. you can't move to another country because you care about all the kids in that school and not just yours.. and you know a lot of other parents feel the same way.. the government doesn't help you either..

    You can sit back and let it happen.. or you can rally up the other parents and throw over the schoolsystem.

    You shouldn't see stuff as black and white.. Ché has become a legend.. same as Napoleon.. it is totally ok when someone says 'Napoleon' was a great man! While you will get lynched when you say the same thing about Hitler. They both started wars and killed numerous people..

    I know where you're coming from.. war shouldn't be the way to peace.. but when you feel there is already a way, you will feel that you have to fight back with all means to end that war and therefor reinstall peace. People like Ché or the Allied Forces in WWII were feeling that they should end oppression (Ché purely ideological, the AF probably because they were scared for the potential power of the Third Reich as well).. and people like Bush are just in it for the oil ;)
     
  5. Pointbreak

    Pointbreak Banned

    Yes war is hell. But after he won the war, Che made peace hell too.
     
  6. BraveSirRubin

    BraveSirRubin Members

    Che was a murderer, but also is a symbol of fighting for what you believe in. I dislike what he did, but love what he symbolized.
     
  7. nocturna

    nocturna Member

    I think what's the left really like about Che is the idea behind him. You see, he came from a comfortable life and he abandoned that life in order to fight a cause that, to him, will benefit the poor. There's something heroic about that, you know. Of course, in my opinion, he didn't fully succeed. But, still, I think he did something worthy of applause.
     
  8. Kandahar

    Kandahar Banned

    That's like saying you dislike the Holocaust, but you're going to idolize Hitler because you really love his environmental policies.
     
  9. Mui

    Mui Senior Member

    Sorry sir... i really dont think you know a lick about trotsky... responsible for torture and murder of people?? Thats definitely not trotsky.
     
  10. Pointbreak

    Pointbreak Banned

    Maybe its not the Trotsky you read about in on socialist websites, but that's Trotsky.

    He helped set up forced labor camps, created a Bolshevik Cheka (secret police), and helped with the Red Terror (mass executions of people with incorrect class origins and beliefs).

    Juicy quotes from our hero:
     
  11. BraveSirRubin

    BraveSirRubin Members

    Hitler was never made int oa symbol for his environmental policies.
     
  12. Balbus

    Balbus Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

    **

    The problem is that right wing ‘heros’ never seem to have the same allure. Probably the most well known right wing hero of modern times would be Ronald Reagan, and as the post here at the time of his death showed many had the same opinion of him as you have of Che or Trotsky. Other ‘heros’ of the right are equally tarnished, I mean who is going to take seriously self styled right wing ‘heros’ like Oliver North (Reagan’s Che to North’s Castro) or even worse Rush Limbaugh (and his anal cysts that got him out of any military service)??

    As to right wing political thinkers the most talked about recently is Leo Strauss, the intellectual foundation on which Neo-Conservatism had been built. Once more not a very charismatic or alluring character and as to his ideas of using lies as control mechanisms, a viewpoint I would think any right minded person would despise.

    **
     
  13. lostblackdog

    lostblackdog Member

    Let's face it... Che looks pretty awesome with that fist in the air and that piratical look about him. The whole arguement about him being a doctor IS a rather ironic twist on the situation, but does that really surprise any of you history buffs out there? Life is full of those so it seems...

    Anyways, I was originally going to come defend Che, but you hold some valid and somewhat well-balanced views in my own personal opinion. I'm still a leftist, Che-idolizing bastard, but I think he was awesome because he did take the initial firey steps towards getting the U.S. and the CIA and the mob all out of Cuba. He saw an issue, and he went after it like a true patriot would no matter where they were.

    When the only two resources you have are both corrupt as hell, and one was the Soviets vs. the closer, yet arguabley more corrupt U.S., which of the two evils are you gonna chose? Especially if you and many of your people see this bold, new idealistic future of equality and an end to the social desperation that was thriving under the opressive policies of Batista and the U.S.? Would you indeed chose the society that was based on a system that was idealy created to do the same thing that you had dreamed of, that your people had dreamed of, even if you had to do things that you didn't agree with?

    It's kinda like if you found yourself in prison and you were somebody's bitch. You were this one guy's bitch, and you kicked his ass, but he was in a gang and now his gang leader wants you to be HIS bitch, and he has a lot of power and lives one cell over. Then there's this other guy living not all too far away who's just as big as the gang leader next to you, and while the new guy still wants you to give him head in exchange for protection from the gang leader, at least you're not getting ASS RAPED by the guy next door!

    That's kind of how Che and Fidel had to examine the situation.... It was a shitty place to be stuck in, but they had to choose between getting ASS RAPED by the U.S., or they could just give in to the Soviets a little bit... not to mention that it probably felt kinda cool to wave some shiny new missles in the face of the U.S.! I'm not saying that the missle crisis was laughable, but when you see it from their perspective, it was probably really empowering to them and to the people who they were trying to help.

    Now do I think Che was a saint? Hell no... Che was far from it, and he really probably shouldn't get as much fame and glory as he does as far as his combat policies go, but was he someone that we can look to and see a vision of freedom within? Perhaps that's why he is adored so much by the U.S. leftists at this time. Che represents revolution, albeit a violent one in his scenario, he still represents a strong and currently unattainable rise against the opressive right-wing capitalist government. Che represents the two ideals that the progressive, patriotic people in the U.S. cannot achieve at this time; freedom and equality. Is that worth fighting for? Is that worth dying for? Is that what our country was founded upon? Freedom of thought, speech, ideals, and equality and justice for all?

    I think it certainly is...
     
  14. HuckFinn

    HuckFinn Senior Member

    How exactly does Che represent freedom?
     
  15. crummyrummy

    crummyrummy Brew Your Own Beer Lifetime Supporter

    che was a war monger, he was only happy in a position of power. he started armed struggles to appease his over inflated sense of ego that his bugois posts Castro appointed him to could not. he couldnt stand being second fiddle and went off to go be head cheese. Political struggle is much like religeous oppresssion, then men using it to capture and maintain power dont believe in it, only utilize it to get others to do their bidding. and hence bin laden will never strap a bomb to his body.
     
  16. lostblackdog

    lostblackdog Member

    If you were a poor, starving peasant forced to slave away in the jungle and work on sugarcane farms all your life for nowhere near an adequate pay to simply get by, then when someone finally stands up and overthrows the opressive system that's been holding you down, you might just see that person as a symbol of freedom... perhaps. Violence or no violence... I doubt you would really care at that point. The system went down regardless.
     
  17. Disarm

    Disarm Member

    Yeah. Good point but they're idolised for their ideals, which are really great ideals- equality as the main one.. they were sticking up for the people noone else stuck up for, in an ideal world they would be there most ideal people..but in order to get their ideals across they did a lot of bad things (but id like to point out in the russian civil war the whites committed more atrocities than the reds did (trotskys side)). War is ugly no matter what, but they made the cause for war more noble in many peoples eyes.

    But yeah, definitely ironic and sad that che is all over tshirts and flags.
     
  18. HuckFinn

    HuckFinn Senior Member

    He replaced one oppressive system with another. He was chummy with the Soviets when they were literally building a cage around West Berlin to keep "liberated" East Germans from fleeing there, and he was prepared to nuke the US.

    There is no valid reason to idolize a thug like Che, especially when there are so many more worthy champions of justice to choose from, like Oscar Romero.
     
  19. crummyrummy

    crummyrummy Brew Your Own Beer Lifetime Supporter

    Exactly. He did nothing for anyone, ever.


    Oh wait, Hot Topic has made a bundle selling tshirts with his likeness. There ya go, he justifies his existence by funding captalistic corperations and all they stand for *rolls eyes*:rolleyes:
     
  20. I personally look up to Che and Trotsky. They were idealists and ended up being abandoned by their causes due to sticking to their ideals.
     

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