Feelings about the rise of Christianity?

Fellow Buddhists, what are your thoughts on the rise of Christian Politicians in America? (the term 'Religious' Right seems a bit deceptive to me.)

I see Christian Fundamentalism as causing misery and suffering through ignorance of self. The belief that a God ,who is forever seperated from you, is your only hope of salvation and the idea that humanity in general is sinful repulses me and many other 'Blue Blooded Americans'. I believe that ignorance causes suffering and the SPREAD of ignorance should be cut short when at all possible, agreed?

Does it bother you when Envangelical Christians are passing laws/using the presidency to broadcast their limiting belief system into the mainstream? Is this an accurate discription of current events?

What is to be done?

CAN anything be done?

Will Karma take care of it?

Will 'fighting back' only make us more like them?

 

No thoughts regarding this ... why should there be? Is it conducive to the practice of liberation, right view, right wisdom, right concentration?

Ignorance is the root of all suffering. Ignorance causes Volitional Formations (Karma). Karma causes Consciousness. Consciousness is the cause of Name and Form (Mental and Physical properties). Name and Form causes the production of the Six Base Senses (eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, mind). The Six Senses produce Contact. Contact causes Feelings to arise. Feelings cause Craving. Craving causes Clinging. Clinging causes Becoming (existence). Becoming causes Birth. Birth causes Death, sorrow, lamentation, despair, suffering. (Commonly referred to the twelve limbs of Dependent Origination, as described in the Second Noble Truth taught by Buddha.)

Remove the root cause, Ignorance (incorrect view) and you remove suffering, you end the rounds of Birth and Death.

Christianity is not the cause of Ignorance, our incorrect view on the ultimate nature of reality is.

No [it doesn't bother me]. Why should it? Is it conducive to the practice of liberation?

Description is your perception of an event. You can call it whatever is best for you to describe so that others can comprehend or view it the way you do.

Why should anything be done? Is it conducive to the practice of liberation?

One thing is certain through our entire endless rounds of rebirth ... Karma is our only constant companion.

The main essence of Buddhism is this ... Help others whenever possible, and when not possible [to help] then do no harm. There are three basic types of harm that can be inflicted on sentient beings ... Mental, Physical and Verbal. That is why we are constantly to be mindful of the three doors of Mind, Body and Speech.

With loving-kindness and compassion,

Darrell

 

You mentioned right view, right wisdom(?), and right concentration...but what about right action and right work?

I guess what you are telling me from your (very impressive!) recitation of the 'Twelve limbs of Dependant Origination' is that
ignorance is the cause of suffering.

So, fighting Christianity would just be fighting a symptom?
But if that 'symptom' is supporting peoples ignorance? What about using the symptom to locate ignorance? Etc Etc

Also, I think combatting ignorance in ourselves and in others IS very relevant to liberation! Planetary and otherwise.

I'm not so much looking for a bunch of regurgitated doctrine, I'm looking for someone to agree with everything I think. period.
HaHa...no
Still, maybe I should re-locate this discussion to the Protest boards where people are of a more social/political bent.

It's just that protesters seem so damned AnGRY all the time...I think it would be more effecient, in the long run, to add some humility and spirit to 'protest'. anyways ...
Live the Revolution...Peace....
Thanks for the reply!

 

"Also, I think combatting ignorance in ourselves and in others IS very relevant to liberation!"

Maybe you right
But who knows?

 

Why combat anything?

One famous personage once said ... And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? (Matthew 7:3) ... Buddhist or not, it's still a relevant statement. Work on removing your own Ignorance first before trying to remove others.

Trying to force others to submit to your view of liberation is not liberation. Nor is relevant to your own liberation.

With loving-kindness and compassion,

Darrell

 

There is no "right work". There is, however, "right livelihood."

Of course you are [looking for a bunch of regurgitated doctrine]. You spew violence from your own statements ... fight ... combat.

Expectations lead to disappointments. Sustained disappointment leads to impatience. Sustained impatience leads to anger. Sustained anger leads to hatred, violence, murder, extinction.

Darrell

 

I believe there is a difference between forcing the liberal way of life upon others and making it able for them to choose the liberal way of life.

Like in Tibet.. the people there can't practise their beliefs openly anymore. There should be way more (peacefull) protest against that imho.. just so there is again freedom of religion. As soon as one religion takes over there isn't any freedom anymore for the rest.

Now you may say that buddhism is a way of life and that you can practise it always and everywhere.. but let's take this to an extreme, for the sake of discussion.

What if sitting in lotusposition would be forbidden because it's 'buddhist' and therefor 'satanic'? You could do walking meditation. What if carrying any sign of the buddha or buddhism was forbidden? You could live without. What if you are forced to work in the meat industry or forced to eat meat? To me, as a vegetarian.. that would be very very difficult. Or what if you are forced to be a prison guard.. or torture people.. or be killed yourself? Well.. then you probably choose the latter..

See my point? There are a lot of things you can work around.. but eventually it would be a matter of life and death.

So what can there be done? I think awareness and peacefull actions to get awareness are a good idea. That why I admire that monk (see that other thread here somewhere of 'velvet'.. hehe.. that's me as well.. long story) who set himself on fire because of the oppression of fellow buddhist and such.

I feel that everyone should have the freedom to choose to which community he/she wants to belong and raise their children according to his/her own believes.. (with the 'right of exit')..

Anyways.. difficult subject none the less.

 

There is a difference. Yes there is. However, there is also a difference between "making it able" and "combatting". Where one uses a more peaceful approach ("making it able") and one uses a more violent approach ("combatting").

There is a peaceful approach. Perhaps the most peaceful approach available to the world today ... the Internet ... http://www.freetibet.org

Not sure what you mean by that, but the reason Tibet was not allowed to practice religion was because China, during the occupation of Mao Tse Tung, deemed all religion poison. For that reason alone, Buddhism was outlawed, and is still to this day. When my lama, a Buddhist Geshe, visits Lhasa, he is told not to practice his religion while he is visiting Tibet. Monks today are still being beaten, tortured and killed by the Chinese Authorities for practicing Buddhism in Tibet.

Frankly, no, I don't see your point. In America practicing a religion other than Christianity is not a forbidden offence, nor will it ever come to that. There are a lot of people who sit in the "lotus position" and don't even practice Buddhism, Hinduism, or other sort of religion. There are Christians who sit in the "lotus position." There are even Christian Buddhists, as well as Islamic Buddhists, and Hindu Buddhists and Jewish Buddhists ...

And as far as I know, one is never "forced" to take up an occupation they do not want, are not properly educated for, nor are able to perform. Not in America anyway. Nor is any individual in any part of the world "forced" to eat anything they don't want. Meat might be the only food staple available, but that does not imply the one going hungry is being forced to eat it. They can choose to eat or not eat. No one will be standing over them with a gun to their heads telling to eat it or die.

Why be overly concerned with something that is not happening? Is it conducive to anything relating to practice? Seek to free your own mind from pain and suffering before you seek to free others. How can you even hope see the pain and suffering of others when you are so caught up in your own?

I neither agree or disagree with what Thich Quang Duc has done. Buddhism teaches to do no harm. This includes the self. A Bodhisattva would not intentional kill himself for the good of the people. A Bodhisattva would obey the precept of not taking a life, even his own. A Bodhisattva would also understand that killing oneself would send a message to others that it is okay to do so, long as you think your doing is for the good of others. In my opinion, and this is just my opinion, Thich Quang Duc was delusional. And I would dare to say that Buddha would also say he was delusional. Buddha has called one man delusional for lamenting over his dead wife for over a year. How much more extreme is setting oneself on fire versus lamenting the loss of a wife?

Darrell

 

a few things. First of.. the 'combating' quote is not mine but from the user Goinghome. Second, Buddha did and said a lot of things that isn't followed by everyone who calls themselves buddhist. For example, buddha (siddharta gautama) was a vegetarian. Many buddhist (monks) are not (esp. in Japan). So the fact that buddha thought someone was delusional for mourning his dead wife has little impact on how others are 'allowed' to feel. GoingHome and myself feel apperantly very strongly when it comes to the freedom of others. And it may not be the case in the US that only Christianity rules.. but it is a fact that Christians are overrepresented in a lot of governments. When it comes to the US, just think of the 'one nation under God' and all the 'God blesses' of Bush. There is hardly a seperation between State and Religion. A lot of Christians oppose to paganism, satanism and what more.. when we don't put a hold to that now and make sure every religion gets it's own freedom.. than where will it end?

A poem comes to mind from WWII, as written on the wall of the holocaust museum in Washington:

"When they came for the gypsies, I did not speak, for I am
not a gypsy. When they came for the Jews, I did not speak,
because I wasn't a Jew. When they came for the Catholics, I
did not speak, for I am not a Catholic. And when they came
for me, there was no one left to speak."

The buddhist teaching may teach about suffering and detachment.. but it also teaches about compassion. For me, that is the focus point. I'm not a stoic, therefor I feel it is perfectly possible to be buddhist ànd to feel (com)passionate about something.

 

Oops !!!

Sorry about that ... cut-n-pasting [QUOTE= blocks.

My mistake, I apologize ...


Darrell

 

I'll repeat myself ... Why be overly concerned with something that is not happening?

Comming for the Gypsies, Comming for the Jews, Comming for the Catholics ... these may well be things that were happening at the moment they were happening ... but ... there is no one comming for the Buddhists ... least not in this country or any other country except for Tibet. You can speak out against these things by becoming active in things such as www.FreeTibet.org

Darrell

 

Hm.. I'm not sure I understand where you're comming from. What would you do if there were coming for the jews, the catholics.. etc etc?

 

I'm sure I would have something to do about it ... like ... hide the Jews or Catholics ... become active in an underground railroad to ensure they have safe passage out of whatever harm was to beset them ...

And you? What would you do?

Darrell

 

ok.. then I misunderstood.. I thought that you were more stoic

Yeah.. ofcourse I'd like to say I'd do the same.. but I think when the situation is actually there, everyone reacts differently you know? I mean.. if you had asked all individuals in my country in 1935 if they would care for their Jewish neighbours that probably would've said yes.. yet very few did so.

By being heroic you risk the lifes of others (your family, spouse, kids) as well..

You know what I mean?

 

Yes, I do know ...

And, I agree on different reactions for different situations. I've been witness to enough of that myself. But, when it comes down to it ... reactions are programmed responses ... education. For instance, your average Joe Bloe who has had training in Emergency First Aid, and who knows how to do CPR with confidence will be the first person to react with first aid, versus all the other average Joe Bloe's who have never had one lick of training at all ... programmed response.

I don't have any mates, girl-friends, boy-friends, wife, husband, children or such that I am attached to, so I don't have anyone who will suffer any such consequences, but yes, I do realize what you were saying about being heroic ... But most of my friends know me well enough to know that I will stick up for anyone being opressed without the application of physical, mental or verbal force, even at the cost of their (my friends) own safety.

Darrell

 

to show

is not to convince, right or?

 

This post is lost,
Darrel Kitchen, I have better things to do than argue END LESS LY
on the internet, Apparently you do not.
In the future,if you see a post by me (goinghome)
Please,
do not reply.
thanks!

 

So, anyone have anything CONstructive to say?

 

It's okay, GH, or would that be JM again?

Darrell