Economic fear-mongering

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Pressed_Rat, Feb 4, 2009.

  1. Pressed_Rat

    Pressed_Rat Do you even lift, bruh?

    Obama said today that the engineered financial crisis will turn into a "catastrophe" if the so-called stimulus bill isn't passed quickly.

    Nancy Pelosi said that "500 million" (I think she meant thousand) jobs will be lost every month until the bill is passed. (See video.)

    Of course these are blatant lies designed to instill fear, as the stimulus package won't do a damn thing except bring us closer to hyperinflation and the complete devaluation of the dollar (which is what they want). But it makes you wonder what tricks they might pull from their sleeves to ensure the bill is passed.
     
  2. Piney

    Piney Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

    Theese folks dont want the naysayers killing the subsidy/ stimulus bill.

    If Republicans in Congress loudly proclaim
    " We can't afford it" OR " It won't work"

    somehow word will get back to people in China, Japan and Taiwan who have the savings to buy those treasury bills. Funding will dry up. Or grow more expensive.
     
  3. Fawkes

    Fawkes Member

    I love that bit about 500 million people losing their jobs every month. I too believe that she meant thousand, but it's still funny that she said that jobs loses will be more than the total population of the whole USA. She is an idiot.

    Pressed_Rat, I don't buy into your belief that it don't matter who is in the oval office because they are all tools anyway. Obama is the worst case scenario. McCain wasn't much better, Palin was pretty good though. But Obama is a complete mess. Though I do agree that Reid, Geithner, Pelosi, Obama and the rest use fear tactics to make us follow their will.

    I mean, Obama says that America will suffer harsh consequences if we don't act quickly and approve this package? WHAT A BUNCH OF CRAP!!! I mean, a lot of this money won't be spent for years, so who cares if we take an extra week to debate the bill. He says that the Senate and House of Representatives should set aside partisanship and think about what is good for the American Economy? Wait, the only bipartisan vote in the house was NO. The YES vote was completely partisan, for the democrats.

    Obama is completely full of shit. While I pray that something happens and he succeeds, I have this dread that he is going to be the worst president in American history and we are facing another Great Depression.
     
  4. drew5147

    drew5147 Dingledodie

    Five bucks says this thread gets moved to conspiracy.
     
  5. Hiptastic

    Hiptastic Unhedged

    I think this thread should be moved to "ironic" since the biggest fearmonger at HipForums is accusing people of fearmongering.
     
  6. Aristartle

    Aristartle Snow Falling on Cedars Lifetime Supporter

    Canadians lost 129,000 jobs in January.
     
  7. cadcruzer

    cadcruzer Sailing the 8 seas

    213,000 in the last 3 months
    Almost 3 times the original prediction...
     
  8. heywood floyd

    heywood floyd Banned

    Remember global warming fearmongering? What about domestic terrorism fearmongering? I'm starting to get the impression that if everyone suddenly looked up into the sky and saw a giant asteroid speeding towards the earth, Pressed Rat would say it's no cause for alarm and accuse the politicians of doomsday asteroid fearmongering. Well, at least they don't have to worry about putting the fear into you, because it seems you're already afraid of absolutely everything.

    And as much as the Republicans would love it, more tax cuts for rich people don't make sense when the rest of us don't have jobs! They are stalling this bill because they can't stand the notion that for once their rich buddies aren't going to be taken care of... and because they're afraid that if that were to happen, all the rich bastards who make America great would probably just take their money elsewhere.

    I'm not saying Obama is the messiah or anything, but he's made the effort to be a lot more transparent than Bush and seems genuinely disgusted at the widening gap between rich and poor. As of yet I don't see any reasons to believe that he's anything otherwise. His 'involvement' (more like a vague association) with various left-wing organizations only proves he has a genuine interest in real change.

    The Republicans refuse to admit that it just makes sense to raise income tax levels (as the rich will be the only ones making any money), and channel that money into social programs, job security and salary protection.

    In fact at this point, it would make a lot of sense to use that stimulus package to buy out struggling private companies, require executives to pay out decent salaries, and eventually recreate them all as secure, well-paying government jobs. I predict that this crisis will see a huge increase in social programs and more government influence on formerly private companies... and hopefully the gap between the economic classes will close a little, if not a lot. I mean, if the whole world is in a crisis and the capitalist scum can't make a bigger profit elsewhere (well, assuming they can't find a government willing to just hand them a stimulus package for jets and cars and other such items), then they're going to have to accept that other people's lives are, surprisingly, more important than the preservation of their luxurious lifestyles.Honestly, it's about time these fuckers were brought to their knees, and I'm dying to see it happen.

    But unfortunately, Obama is a big idealist and he had to create a cabinet of enemies who refuse to agree on anything... that's going to be trouble. The same thing happened to the Liberals in Canada-- the party leader made his opponent in the party leadership race into the deputy PM of his shadow cabinet, and the whole party collapsed. Guess who's running it now? That's right-- his former opponent.

    Most politicians are nasty people-- and Republicans are the worst of the worst. Bush stocked his with a bunch of yes men because he wanted control, and they all lapped it up. Obama wanted balance, but instead he's going to get aggravation... he thought he was dealing with intelligent human beings, and he couldn't see that he's dealing with crooks.
     
  9. drew5147

    drew5147 Dingledodie

    Don't you realize that some of the biggest profits are to be made in times of crisis?


    Money doesn't just disappear...
     
  10. TheMadcapSyd

    TheMadcapSyd Titanic's captain, yo!

    Bingo, and it's not the end of the world either, economies go boom and bust, it's only been happening for............most of money based society history? Despite what people here(literally here) there and everywhere want you to think, it will get better eventually, it's just a question how quick and how bad bad it will get first.
     
  11. Pressed_Rat

    Pressed_Rat Do you even lift, bruh?

    Heywood - Are you serious? Please tell me you're joking.

    The "stimulus" is designed ONLY to benefit the corporations and the super-wealthy you refer to. After all, Obama is nothing more than a frontman for the banksters, so why would it be any other way? The only thing the people will get from this is more debt in their name and a devalued dollar. What Obama (actually his banking handlers) are proposing is not a solution, but is merely throwing fuel on a fire already raging out of control. Because of your partisan naivete, you do not realize there is not a damn amount of difference between the two parties.

    Now I know your unabashed worship of Obama is probably causing you to not think clearly. After all, he's black, has a D instead of an R next to his name, and speaks about change. Therefore he MUST represent the average joe instead of the bankers and corporate elite pulling his strings. Or so you think.

    Why the hell am I even arguing with you? I am not going to argue over Democrat vs. Republican talking points with people who just don't get it. Unlike you, I see beyond that and realize it's all smoke and mirrors. The entire debate going on right now between the Democrats and Republicans is nothing more than a dog and pony show. The Republicans are no better, and, as I said yesterday, if McCain were in office he'd probably be putting forward the same bill since there is not a dime's worth of difference between these people, other than at the most superficial levels.

    Get it through your head that Obama does not represent you or anyone else that isn't super wealthy. The only difference between Obama and the last criminal psychopath in office is the rhetoric. You have bought into this rhetoric hook, line and sinker. It has bypassed all your faculties of critical thought, considering you even have them to begin with.
     
  12. TheMadcapSyd

    TheMadcapSyd Titanic's captain, yo!

    ^
    See, that's not a debate on theory and practice of economics though, that's just paranoia
     
  13. Pressed_Rat

    Pressed_Rat Do you even lift, bruh?

    I'd rather be paranoid than in a perpetual state of non-think, parroting whatever bullshit the talking heads on CNBC told me.

    There is nothing here on economics to be discussed. If you don't understand that then you don't get it. If they wanted a solution to this crisis which THEY created, they could have one. But they don't. So they feed us more arsenic under the pretense that it's a cure. I'm not going to eat their poison.

    How is saying that this will only result in more debt and a devalued dollar, paranoia, when it is absolutely true?

    U.S. Taxpayers Risk $9.7 Trillion on Bailout Programs

     
  14. TheMadcapSyd

    TheMadcapSyd Titanic's captain, yo!

    See there's no logic here, there's no well what were the causes of this current economic issues, what can we learn from it, what's the best way to deal with it, what are the economic pros and cons of the stimulus, ect. It's they did it, they're not actually trying to fix it, they're just trying to fuck us all over. There is no they, there's just people, and we're all responsible(yes even people down to joe the fuck plumber). And there's no middle ground, it's either believe everything is some horrible conspiracy or they're brainwashed by CNN and what not.
    Which is sad cause I actually agree with you often on political positions, but the reasons why we get there are 2 totally different things.
    Which makes me need to steal someone else's signature for a moment
    [​IMG]
     
  15. Pressed_Rat

    Pressed_Rat Do you even lift, bruh?

    I have explained what caused this mess. It was caused by the Federal Reserve issuing ridiculous amounts of credit along with 40-year low interest rates as seen under Greenspan, resulting in excessive spending and debt accumulation. The housing bubble and the ensuing corruption on Wall Street is only the symptom of a much bigger problem, and one what was created for a reason.


     
  16. Hiptastic

    Hiptastic Unhedged

    It does though. If you build your own house, you create an asset worth $200,000 (for example). That is an asset you can sell, or borrow against, etc. It is a real asset. If the house burns down, you lose $200,000. Nobody got richer to offset your loss. Value was destroyed.
     
  17. heywood floyd

    heywood floyd Banned

    PR you're all over the place. First you say, there's no need to pass a bill so quickly. Then you say there's a crisis. Maybe it's just me, but a crisis implies some sort of urgency, wouldn't you say? Then you say it doesn't matter anyway because it's all a big evil scheme to make the rich richer and crush the souls of average hardworking Americans like yourself.

    But like it or not, you are a consumer, and big businesses need consumers in order to survive. If big businesses are controlling the country as you so eloquently suggest, then it just doesn't make sense for them to be destroying their consumer base on purpose.

    When you say that they want this to happen, what do you mean by that? Are you suggesting they want the money from the stimulus packages? That flat out doesn't make sense. If someone gave you a big bag of seeds, would you eat the seeds or plant them, wait a while, and then eat from whatever grew out of them for years?

    Big business can't perpetuate itself without consumers. I don't think most of these big businessmen want to see the companies they built/run for basically their whole lives go kaput. They want to sell their products and make profits.

    And the situation IS urgent. Back in the early thirties, Herbert Hoover took tiny tiny tiny steps towards trying to clear up what was an enormous problem, and the whole country fell into extreme poverty. He also tried a 'buy American' kind of strategy that, surprise surprise, resulted in other countries putting higher taxes on American goods, destroying the international market for American exports and effectively worsening the crisis (so at least Obama isn't listening to the protectionists on this one).

    Then FDR came along with oh wait-- HUGE stimulus packages with lots of spending on social programs, lots of spending on infrastructure... basically, something kind of like what Obama is trying to put through right now (with some tax cuts so the Republicans won't get so angry)...

    And yes, Rat, there is a difference between Democrats and Republicans-- you don't see Democrats whining about there being too many social programs and not enough tax cuts in the bill. Republicans are so used to fighting for tax breaks for their country club buddies that it's like a knee-jerk reaction at this point. But that's 100 percent the wrong way to solve this problem. Capitalist nations don't live and die by the strength of their upper classes, they live and die by the spending power of their middle classes.

    Lower taxes, lower prices and interest rates don't create new consumers, they create panic. They make the crisis transparent, so nobody wants to spend... even if it it would mean taking advantage of a great interest rate or saving some extra dollars that they don't even have.

    FDR has already showed everyone the way through this: the way to get through this is to increase government influence in private sectors, force all that upper-class cash to come down, create new social programs, and give the middle class back its spending power... and (temporarily) creating a centralized banking system wouldn't hurt either...
     
  18. heywood floyd

    heywood floyd Banned

    Also Rat, assuming a super-intelligent government (or super-intelligent anything) is definitely one sign you're a little too paranoid. This crisis was caused by stupidity, incompetence and greed, that's all. Bush was too distracted by his war on terror to actually pay attention, and now everything is fucked. That's what happened... it wasn't caused by an evil genius in an underground lair stroking his cat and planning world domination, it was, like most crises, caused by human stupidity.
     
  19. drew5147

    drew5147 Dingledodie

    I never said that assets don't disappear...

    I said that MONEY doesn't disappear.

    You are taking my words out of context.

    To illustrate my point, using your example...

    Where do the 200 thousand big ones go, that were used to build the house?

    It goes to contractors, lumber salesmen, etc.

    But above all, it goes to the BANKER, who helped to finance the whole project.

    My point still stands.

    Money doesn't just disappear.

    Of course, the house can be destroyed, and you have lost something of value, but that is irrelevant, as that is not my point.
     
  20. Pressed_Rat

    Pressed_Rat Do you even lift, bruh?

    FDR was a banker frontman, too. The Great Depression was engineered so FDR could offer the "New Deal" as the "solution," ushering in socialism and turning the remaining control of the US money supply over to the central bankers. FDR's son-in-law, Curtis Dall, stated this himself. Many of the problems we see today can be traced directly back to FDR's time in office. He created the socialist nanny state we have today, not to help the people, but to control the people under the pretense of government being their daddy and giving them all the good things in life.

    Now what I said about the crisis is that it was artificially-created to justify the "solution." This so-called solution will only pave the way for the next, even bigger crisis, and the next, more extreme "solution." Yes, it is a crisis. It is a crisis that Obama's (and Bush's) globalist handlers engineered on purpose, so they could create the pretext to exercise even more control over the people and set the precedent for a completely managed economy. The globalists want a global banking system and currency. To do this they need to create the crisis to offer the pre-planned "solution" (which benefits them and not the people).

    Big business is a means to an end. The people at the top want power. Money ultimately means little to them since they have control over the money supply, which too is a means to their end. Where do you think all the people's money is going? It's going to the corporations and bankers. A depression is merely a transfer of wealth from the people to the corporate-controlled state. Money is not lost. It does not vanish into thin air. The elite have already bought up most of the world's assets with the money they printed and now the people are left holding the bag.

    The "stimulus" will only create hyperinflation and ultimately help to destroy the dollar, which is what they (as in the global elite) want. Anyone who has basic knowledge about economics knows that you cannot continue to print money out of nothing without devaluing the currency. This is what is happening. We will soon be entering into a period of hyperinflation, where the money becomes almost worthless because of this out of control printing of fiat money. The politicians' logic is that adding kerosene to the fire will put it out. Then again, most of them are just doing their job. (That's because they don't work for you and I, but for the corporate and banking interests that ultimately run this country from behind the curtain.)

    Obama cannot even tell the truth about this bailout. He keeps saying 800 billion dollars, when today Bloomberg reported that it will be over 9 TRILLION dollars once it is all said and done when including the previous bailouts. When the bailout was passed in October, we were also then given the 800 billion number. By the end of November that number was 6 TRILLION. I can only imagine what it will be this time.

    The same corporations and NGO's that dominate and control the Republican Party, dominate and control the Democratic Party as well. That's probably why Obama decided to keep Bush's Secretary of Defense. The appearance of difference between the two parties is merely window dressing, to make you THINK you have a choce. Meanwhile, both parties are pushing the same globalist-totalitarian agenda.
     

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