Covid v Freedom

Discussion in 'U.K.' started by WOLF ANGEL, Mar 14, 2021.

?

JUNE 21st Lifting of Lockdown

  1. Too Early

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Not Early enough

    4 vote(s)
    80.0%
  3. About right

    1 vote(s)
    20.0%
  1. WOLF ANGEL

    WOLF ANGEL Senior Member - A Fool on the Hill HipForums Supporter

    As the pathway of progression steps up. - with more people receiving vaccination, schools being re-opened, the passing of winter and a date set for lifting of Lockdown * (in England, it's planned to end lockdown in four stages, in the hope that all restrictions will be lifted by 21 June.), there seems more appetite to treat the restrictions with as much urgency that once was.
    The number of demonstrators reclaiming the streets and public spaces with increasing frequency seems to indicate a disregard for sticking to the strategy set out.
    The date in June is three months away but with recent in both Manchester and London seeing signs of confrontation, are we set for:-
    • An extension to the term of lockdown?
    • Increased aggression with Police seeing more civil unrest?
    • Results of such seeing NHS resources - once again - stretched and strained?
    OR, - Because of the success that is 'being promoted' by the UK Government, that
    • Things can be opened up far earlier than planned *?,
    • The right to express and protest because of civil liberty is justifiable?
    • Despite the advisory caution given by the Scientists that they may be wrong?
    Does Confidence overtake Caution?
    OR
    Should more emphasis be placed on the assumption of assuredly, and organised protests, vigils and mass gatherings be encouraged?
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2021
    Mysteron likes this.
  2. WOLF ANGEL

    WOLF ANGEL Senior Member - A Fool on the Hill HipForums Supporter

    Manchester
    The organiser of a protest over the proposed 1% pay rise for NHS workers has been handed a £10,000 fine by police.
    Officers attended the demonstration in Manchester city centre at around noon on Sunday.7th March:
    Greater Manchester Police (GMP) said around 40 people had gathered "in contravention of current lockdown legislation".
    [​IMG]
    - Police officers lead one of the protesters away
    [​IMG]
    - Police speak to NHS worker Karen Reissmann after breaking up the protest
    The organiser of the protest, a 61-year-old woman, was issued with a £10,000 fixed penalty notice, the force said.
    A 65-year-old woman was arrested for failing to provide details after refusing to leave, according to GMP.
    NHS pay row: Organiser of protest in Manchester given £10,000 fine by police
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2021
    Mysteron likes this.
  3. WOLF ANGEL

    WOLF ANGEL Senior Member - A Fool on the Hill HipForums Supporter

    London:
    Woman pinned to ground at Clapham vigil says policing was 'disgraceful'
    Image of Patsy Stevenson’s arrest at vigil for Sarah Everard is something the Met ‘will have to explain’
    • upload_2021-3-14_20-8-33.jpeg
    • Patsy Stevenson is held down by two male officers at the vigil in Clapham, south London, on Saturday.13th March
     
  4. WOLF ANGEL

    WOLF ANGEL Senior Member - A Fool on the Hill HipForums Supporter

    So much for .....

    Social Distancing
     
  5. WOLF ANGEL

    WOLF ANGEL Senior Member - A Fool on the Hill HipForums Supporter

    And so we March on - or do we?
    - A backlash against police over using heavy-handed tactics to break up a peaceful vigil in support a murdered woman in London is focusing attention on a new law that aims to clamp down on the right to protest.
    Legislation due before the House of Commons on Monday will feed into the controversy over the death of 33-year-old marketing executive Sarah Everard, who disappeared on March 3 while walking home at night through a park in south London. An off-duty police officer was eventually charged with her abduction and murder, adding to the tensions.
    London Mayor Sadiq Khan and Home Secretary Priti Patel both called Sunday for an independent investigation of the Metropolitan Police’s handling of the vigil, which turned violent when police tried to disburse the crowd for violating social distancing rules at a time when the U.K. remains in lockdown.
    The peaceful gathering to raise awareness about crimes against women quickly turned chaotic, with images of male officers pinning down female protesters circulating widely in the press on on social media.
    Khan met with senior police officials on Sunday, but said in a tweet that he “was not satisfied with the explanation they have provided.”
    (Snippet Curtesy of Bloomberg: - Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
     
  6. WOLF ANGEL

    WOLF ANGEL Senior Member - A Fool on the Hill HipForums Supporter

  7. WOLF ANGEL

    WOLF ANGEL Senior Member - A Fool on the Hill HipForums Supporter

    Seems to me: =
    The Police (backed up by Government directive!) should issue a statement of intent that they will 'Not' be policing such gatherings. Those who chose to meet and interact should be allowed to do so '- - by waiving their rights to NHS Medical treatment, should they contract any virus because of doing so.
    THAT is what Conviction and Conscience for a cause is all about, not the aggressive attitude exhibited. IMO.
     
  8. wilsjane

    wilsjane Members

    Purely regarding covid.
    I would lift the current restrictions immediately and replace them with a new set of guidelines that can be imposed immediately in areas where the number of people requiring ICU treatment threatens to overwhelm the hospitals. THIS SHOULD NOT BE BASED ON POSITIVE TESTS FOR THE VIRUS ALONE.

    We are now in an utterly crazy situation where almost all vulnerable people are vaccinated and less than 1% of new sufferers require medication.
    I am one of hundreds of people who believe that the panic about the new strains of covid was a mutation that PREDATED 19 by 2 years. This may well have kick started natural immunity..

    5 of my friends were tested 2 weeks ago and ALL had a positive result. However other than a few coldlike symptoms in 2 of them for a few days, they had no other symptoms. I hear similar cases almost every day.

    Since the dawn of time, our ANNUAL mortality rate has been similar, BUT WEEK BY WEEK it is a very lumpy graph. At the moment, 2020 deaths were about 1% high.
    I am fairly certain that this will cancel in 2021.
    Needless to say, I feel sorry for people who have had their lives cut short, but the figures show that this was an average of about 14 days. This is what ALL viruses do.
    I am sure that in the past, you have heard people wondering whether their frail loved ones will survive another winter.

    The month by month mortality figures for parts of India would make your hair stand on end. Needless to say, the peaks line up with the monsoon season.

    In a nutshell.
    Lift the restrictions, but ask people to wear masks on public transport, along with working from home for 3 days a week where possible
    Add local more severe restrictions for 10 day periods, ONLY when hospital senior doctors deem that it is necessary.

    When someone told me that we have been cracking walnuts with sledgehammers, I called him an idiot. :)
    We have been cracking them with nuclear missiles. :D:D:D

    PS.
    I am not saying that the March 2020 restrictions were unnecessary, the hospitals were in serious danger of becoming overwhelmed with covid and allowing OTHER seriously ill patients to die.
    Hopefully early intervention during the next nasty virus will reduce the need for such stringent measures,
     
  9. Vladimir Illich

    Vladimir Illich Supporters Lifetime Supporter HipForums Supporter



    Ever the eternal optomist !!! - Do you trust the scumbag 'nasty party' to do the right thing timeously ??? I certainly don't and on present form my distrust of these bastards would seem justified !!!
     
  10. WOLF ANGEL

    WOLF ANGEL Senior Member - A Fool on the Hill HipForums Supporter

    As I see it, the problem here is compliance.
    Giving guidance affords the opportunity to bend such - to the extreme
    • Fiercely enforcing: puts a strain on the Police-Public Service
    • No Enforcement: puts a strain on NHS -Public service
    Finding the right balance is always going to be difficult when reliant on a General Public that is reluctant to comply with strategies set out by regional/areas.
    Here in Greater Manchester the ten different authorities had different restrictions to their particular divisions, - which were complicated by the fact that area were crossed in order that workers reached their various employment sites.
    Our (Greater Manchester) Hospitals are dealing with adversity not because of restriction guidance but addressing matters in spite of such
    As I previously said, the proposed date of lifting things is still three Months away. (if compliance is adhered to), my fear/feeling is unless this plan is not adhered to then that date may be 'subject to change'
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2021
    wilsjane likes this.
  11. wilsjane

    wilsjane Members

    Gee, what a mess. Sadly, when Boris makes the rules people condemn him for basing them on London, then when he delegates the decisions to regional authorities, things get 10 times worse.

    Did my last post make sense to you.? I am a researcher, not a licenced surgeon, so I tend to see the broader picture, rather than focus on what is going on in theatre. As a result, I see the problems in specialist surgery and address them, rather than follow any rules. Working alongside the companies who manufacture the devices has had results, with TAVI procedures up to 25 years prognosis from 5..Needless to say, I was only one cog in the works of developing the changes.

    My biggest fear with covid is that even ICU doctors are so focused on saving patients (which they are doing extremely well). that they never need to look at the necessary preventative situation.
    I only wish that I knew the answer.

    To give an unrelated example of how statistics alone can cause such problems.
    When you buy a car, you can read reliability reports on the manufacturer to help you to decide on the vehicle that will develop the least faults within 3 years.
    Some years ago, Audi and VW both fell from near top to almost bottom of the rating.
    The entire problem was that thousands of cars had been fitted with a newly designed windscreen wiper blade that split within the period. The replacement took 4 minutes (book time) and most people just fitted them themselves at a cost of £2.75.
    Meanwhile, people buying super reliable cars that had LESS faults were sitting outside the garage with seized up engines.
    It was hard not to laugh at how gullible the public can be at times.

    In the words of one of my oldest friends...... "I never lie, I just forget to tell the truth". ;););)
     
  12. wilsjane

    wilsjane Members

    I try to remain optimistic and do so by looking at the truth without being influenced by the ignorant media, who at one point nearly lost me my job by quoting something that I had said privately and light heartedly concerning a film soundtrack totally out of context. .
    As you know, I have always suggested that you take care in the current situation.
    Take a look at my reply above, #11
     
  13. WOLF ANGEL

    WOLF ANGEL Senior Member - A Fool on the Hill HipForums Supporter

    (1/2)
    1. I think that it's right to have Geographical autonomy - the problem is Boris makes National decisions that affect Local decision making
    2. You lost me a bit, though I think I got the gist
    3. Sometimes one has to focus on the primary Triage system in order to deal with the grand issue/s that face one
     
    wilsjane likes this.
  14. WOLF ANGEL

    WOLF ANGEL Senior Member - A Fool on the Hill HipForums Supporter

    2/2
    > Statistics are always used to give favourable (and often not 100% accurate) depictions, the difference being if the calculations are based on the cause (or lack) of educational standards and presentation
     
    wilsjane likes this.
  15. wilsjane

    wilsjane Members

    This is one of the biggest problems.
    Out of fear, largely generated by the media, thousands of people were arriving at hospitals daily, 99% of who needed no treatment.
    Here in London, we were getting hourly adverts telling people to remain at home, take paracetamol if required and only attending the hospital in event of breathing difficulty's
    One of the problems of the isolation rules were that a lot of elderly people were home alone and social care workers could not cope,

    As I said earlier, their are problems at every turn.
    Quite why the adjoining local authorities were not all agreeing on the general guidelines is another matter..
     
  16. WOLF ANGEL

    WOLF ANGEL Senior Member - A Fool on the Hill HipForums Supporter

    1. Whilst we are not getting adverts Periti in Manchester - I don't think it would make any difference - 'we; tend to do what we want to do
    2. Under the 'Mayorship' of Burnham, the divisions of the whole seem often in dispute and territorial protection of their individual (authority) priorities
     
  17. WOLF ANGEL

    WOLF ANGEL Senior Member - A Fool on the Hill HipForums Supporter

    By the way:-
    It is interesting to note the differences there are North, South, East, West within the UK under Covid (and beyond)
    One of the good things about IT usage is learning through personal and current experiences – and better than either perception, assumption and/or media depiction
    :)
     
  18. WOLF ANGEL

    WOLF ANGEL Senior Member - A Fool on the Hill HipForums Supporter

    And the Beat goes on:-
    "Hundreds of people have joined a vigil in London for Sarah Everard, despite Home Secretary Priti Patel urging against gatherings".
    [​IMG]
    image Hundreds of people gathered at Parliament Square on Monday to pay tribute to Sarah Everardhttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56406965
     
  19. WOLF ANGEL

    WOLF ANGEL Senior Member - A Fool on the Hill HipForums Supporter

  20. WOLF ANGEL

    WOLF ANGEL Senior Member - A Fool on the Hill HipForums Supporter

    Manchester Protests: (20-03-21)
    “It’s our human right to protest and we need to stand up for that right.”
    Thousands of people marched on the streets of Manchester this afternoon as several large protests brought the city centre to a halt.
    - Large groups gathered to show their opposition to violence against women and the new police and crime bill on Saturday.
    - Black Lives Matter protesters and an anti-lockdown group were also seen within the crowds, which largely congregated in Piccadilly Gardens and St Peter’s Square.

    Police officers, including tactical aid units, surrounded the large gathering but did not intervene in the demonstrations.
    - Several speakers, including black and indigenous human rights activist Natasha March, held speeches throughout the course of the afternoon.
    - The huge crowds marched through Deansgate, Albert Square and back to St Peter’s Square just after 6pm.
    - Many protesters began to disperse from the area at around 6.30pm.
    Thousands march in Manchester as protests bring city centre to halt
    = Another 'Softly Softly' approach saw a Police presence, though not interference.
    3 Protests; 'Policed' by consent, allowing freedom of speech, balanced with considered order
     

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