Conspiracy or lobbying?

Actually, I don't believe in democracy and I think it's one of the worst forms of government. That still doesn't mean I have the right to dictate to others how I think things should be.

You see, the thing about a democracy is that the majority of the public that is brainwashed can oppress and enslave the minority that isn't. So no, I do not support democracy and I never did. You can say that 19 white men hanging one black man is democracy, since it's the majority rule. The funny thing is, America was never intended to be a democracy. There was not one mention in the Constitution about democracy, yet we're told today that "democracy" is the key to freedom. That's hogwash! Say what you will about the founders of this country; I do not hold them in the high regard that some do, because I know this country was founded with a predetermined destiny. However, even the founders knew that a democracy is one of the worst forms of government and a precursor to totalitarianism, which is what he have today under the guise of "democracy."

What democracy is today is the illusion that by going to the polls and voting on their voting machines, that the people can have a say by choosing between the hand-picked candidates they give you to choose from, who are almost always members of the same organizations, fraternal orders and NGO's, regardless of which party they belong to.

 

If you think democracy is one of the worst forms of government, what is one of the better forms of government in your view?

 

Rat

If I was to say the way I think the world should be run, I would be no different than the people I condemn. That's why I say enough people need to wake up so we can come together as informed individuals, only then so we can talk about solutions and not only one person has a say. I don't talk about "solutions" the way people want me to talk about them, because it is not up to one person to say how things should be. I think it is the fascistic nature in people that thinks they should be allowed to have a say in how other people live. That is not me. I am simply pointing out what's wrong, and then once enough people see what's wrong can something be done collectively.

LOL

So once people ‘wake up’ and think the way you think and see the world the way you see it then they will collectively do what you’d like them to do.

Your statement is pure sophistry, because the reality is you are pushing a way of thinking, an ideology, it is anti-left wing and pro-right wing but you try to hide that fact behind a curtain of conspiracy theory.

If there is one thing you hammer home constantly it is that left wing ideas are wrong.

And you don’t even do that honestly, you seem totally unable to attack them on their merits but instead use the underhand and covert arts of innuendo, supposition and rumour that is conspiracy theory to try and discredit them.

But that is how you attack all the enemies of you right wing ideas; you point ‘out what’s wrong’ and leave only one form of political viewpoint, your own, untouched.

I also try and point out what’s wrong but I’m honest about it, I don’t skulk in the dark, I will openly and honestly discuss my political views and happily answer questions on them.

You are the very opposite of honest and you try very hard to keep you political views hidden.

So why would a right winger want to try and derail a thread on lobbying, is it because the lobby system works very well for the right?

**

Actually, I don't believe in democracy and I think it's one of the worst forms of government. That still doesn't mean I have the right to dictate to others how I think things should be.

LOL – but you have the right to tell them what shouldn’t be, you tell people all the time that they should think this or they shouldn’t think that.

You are a charlatan and con artist, you claim people can choose but the only choice you will allow is your own viewpoint, if someone chooses anything different you call them, stupid morons that are too dense to see the ‘truth’ and if they persist in their opposition to what you are pushing they become accused of being part of ‘the conspiracy’.

But the only political philosophy you will allow you refuse to talk about, because you know that when it is revealed it is very clearly extremely right wing in nature and very obviously would give much more power and influence to the very wealthy elite you so loud and shrill about disliking.

**

 

There are ways for the worker to rise up and seize the means of production from the clutches of corporate control; there are ways to organize and fight back

Thank you, Aristatle

The real fight is out there, people need to do something to bring about a better world, in here we can discuss what that better world should be or could be.

The thing about people like Rat, Xexon etc is that they don’t seem to want to discuss their political views preferring to try and hide them while advocating a policy of do nothing to disrupt the status quo, in my view lobbying to allow the wealthy elite off the hook.

 

In the US a right wing viewpoint is pushed out every day by a media controlled by a mainly right wing elite (even more so than in the UK).

It’s not a conspiracy but if someone wants to get a message out, owning some newspaper(s), radio stations, think tanks etc seems like a good way of going about it and if you have the money to do it…why not.

But is that in the public interest or their own?

If a media owner’s views were challenged do you think they would fight fair and give that view not only equal time but a balanced assessment it they didn’t have to?

What do you think would emerge a reasoned debate or attempts to shut down debate?

And is such a system likely to be become about consensus and pragmatism or move toward being uncompromising and doctrinaire.

 

I make it no secret that I am critical of most Left wing ideals, most of which are socialistic and contradictory to freedom and individuality. This should be obvious by reading what I say. However, I am also critical of many Right wing ideals pertaining to religion. I also make it clear to people that 98% of today's "conservatives" are not conservative at all, as they favor the same big brother welfare/police state as those on the Left. I am an individualist. I don't care what you choose to label yourself or even me for that matter. If you think I am a far Right winger, I don't care. I don't pay all that much attention to Left and Right. I only know what is right and what is wrong.

You see, unlike you, I don't really have "political" views because politics are a farce for manipulating and distracting the public, and all sides within the political spectrum are controlled by the same select few at the top of the pyramid. If I had faith in politics, you would be hearing the "voting is important" mantra coming from me. But you're not.

 

There is no "Right wing elite" or "Left wing elite." The elite do not believe in the political structure, which was designed soley for the people to believe in so they would think that they have a choice from within their system. Those at the top control and administer both sides of the false paradigm, and they control both sides of the debate via the media in which they also control. They control the entire political structure, which is why they always give you the candidates to choose from. You are so focused on this nonsense about Left vs. Right, but I never hear you addressing concern over any of the fraternal orders these people ON BOTH SIDES have sworn allegience to, or the organizations they are members of, such as the Royal Institute for International Affairs (RIIA) in the UK.

The media is controlled by corporations. These corporations and the people who are the top shareholders of these corporations are internationalists with a globalist agenda. They are not Right wingers or Left wingers, therefore, the idea of a Left or Right wing media is also pretty much non-existent, though they will use the illusion of these sides to play them off against one another to create a divide and conquer scenario.

If you cared about more than you ego, Balbus, and were actually informed, you would be getting behind the things I talk about and exposing these elitists yourself. You don't care about truth, though. You don't care about humanity. You care only about rooting for your team, much like a person watching football (soccer) roots for the team of their choice. This is why I loathe politics -- because of the mentality it instills in people like yourself. You are no better than the fake Right wing warmongers out there and are equally part of the problem.

 

I didn't "derail" your thread. You started with your typical bullshit that was clearly aimed at people such as myself. I know, because I have been putting up with your accusations for the past five years. But even still, what you said was incorrect, so I corrected it. It wasn't derailing anything since it pertains to something I quoted directly from your thread. It's clear you didn't want to talk about lobbying in the traditional sense. You started this thread to go off on another one of your circular arguments so you would have another opportunity to grandstand. I am not stupid. I am privy to your deceptive ways.

 

I went back on topic and no one is answering my questions.

Also, why would the neo-cons be more effective lobbyists? I think it has a lot to do with what corporate media represents, as well as the amount of cash, influence, power that these people have - Is it so hard to believe that these people, that share the same views, would build a network to help each other, or at the very least, cooperate? Is that not what a conspiracy would require? Look at the big picture here, not small parts.

I can't see how lobbyists would be unsuccessful in getting our congressmen to do what is right. Either these people are completely dense, stubborn, or they simply don't give a shit about anything other than their own greedy self interests. Yet, these are the people that we have voted for. Is it really that hard to fool enough people into voting for you? These people have enough money, and enough influential people within their network to amass the people into voting for them. Nothing about this is new...

"Lobbyists are registered, they register with the federal government and can give the same amount of money, $2300, anybody else can. That's not going to influence you. What gives the lobbyists influence is the people who hire them for work for them. It's all the people they represent. So all these people who don't take money from lobbyists, they take money from the lobbyists' spouses, their children, their brothers, their sisters, from all the people they represent. It's a distinction without a difference, I think. There's no significant financial gain(lol), because there's not that many lobbyists(really?). If we're going to take money from the guys who pay the lobbyists, why treat them [the lobbyists] as less than full citizens?" - Bill Clinton (a proven liar - Of course he would support lobbyists)


Also, everyone always try to point out: "Well, provide a solution otherwise you aren't helping!" How can we even begin to start talking about solutions if can't even admit to the problems at hand? I don't have to provide solutions to be helpful. I help by analyzing the situation.

Lobbying is only a small part of the problem. You also have to add in the federal reserve, FBI, CIA, DEA and other bureaucracies. These are hierarchical systems that have been proven to be highly corruptible and an inefficient means to solving our problems.

I know that we all want to believe that good always triumphs over evil, but in many cases the bad guy wins. No, I'm not saying that we shouldn't do anything. But you have to admit, voting isn't enough when those we elect have proven time and time again to be liars. People vote for these candidates because they honestly believe that the person that they vote for truly cares about the interest of the people, but they don't. That what was proclaimed on the dais before being elected changes once they are elected.

How are we convincing the people that a preemptive strike on Iran, or even a war with them, would be a good idea? That would be a huge mistake, yet most Americans are beginning to believe that Iran is a threat... Media forms public opinion, and they also greatly influence elections.

"Presidents come and go, but diplomats remain" - George Lucas

 

Rat

If you think I am a far Right winger, I don't care. I don't pay all that much attention to Left and Right. I only know what is right and what is wrong.

LOL

Oh yes of course (balbus hits his forehead with his hand) silly me - it’s just a matter of right and wrong.

You are right so anyone having a viewpoint that isn’t like you is wrong, it’s so simple and clear.

*

But what are the right political policies to follow and what are the wrong political policies to follow?

From the things you have said most of the things you think of as ‘right’ are very right wing politically and virtually everything you think is wrong are left wing politically.

And to you anything to the left politically of your far right views is by definition left wing.

What groups that to most people would think of as right wing such as the neo-cons are from your viewpoint left wing.

The thing is why are you totally unwilling to discuss your political views?

Oh you rant and rave against all the other political views but you never want to talk about your own.

I know you claim you haven’t got any but you have let slip and as I’ve said whenever you have it has become very obvious, very quickly that your views are right wing, even extremely right wing and that undermines your whole arguments concerning the ‘conspiracy’ because it is obvious you would make the wealthy elites much more powerful and influential and you wish to hide that fact.

**

 

Def

So you think there has been a ‘conspiracy of the likeminded’ and this has corrupted the system so much that it isn’t possible for it to change?

Are you saying your solution is to do nothing or something, because I’m not sure?

**

 

I have a pretty basic question. Why is lobbying even a viable industry? If the citizens of this country vote for their representation, why should the hallways of our congress be filled with paid salesmen. Why shouldn't our elected officials have to present their platforms and positions to the citizens directly. When did lobbying become so powerful that the citizens were left out of the process?

Like any product when a middleman is involved the price goes up so they can get their cut. Why has this process been allowed to evolve?

I propose that as the citizens as the employer of these representatives that we demand that they read and understand each bill they vote on, and not let them rely on special interest money and interpretation to guide their votes. We elect them we should hold them accountable.

How many congressmen had read NAFTA before they signed it? How many bills get signed because someone at lunch or in a hallway said it was the right thing to do?

http://www.harrybrowne.org/articles/SneakyBills.htm

 

How many of you are aware of this legislation which would deny you federal aid at your universities if the university does not agree to make file sharing impossible for it's students through filtering. It was introduced late last year it has passed the house.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080115-filtering-could-come-to-isps-colleges-in-2008.html

http://www.boingboing.net/2007/11/11/corrupt-congressmen.html

http://news.cnet.com/Democrats-Coll...r-else/2100-1028_3-6217943.html?tag=nefd.lede

Strange isn't it China continually violates intellectual rights but they have Most Favored Nation status, but if you download anything on your computer while attending college you may lose your financial aid, the college will lose their financial aid program for infringement. Which means you may not be filesharing, but if the college does not institute measures to make filesharing impossible, you as an individual will lose the right to federal assistance whether or not you took part in what is seen as an illegal action here in the states, but is allowed to foreign interests. Who's lobbying for you? I guess citizens deserve no favor.

Have you ask the two candidates where they stand on this bill? I am sure the lobbyists have.

‘‘College Opportunity and Affordability Act of 2007/8’’. Nice title isn't it, but have any of your elected officials actually read it? And if they have what is their interest? Protecting you and/or your children's right to an education or protecting Hollywood and Silicon Valley first? ATT is on board, they are willing to screen if you happen to pay for their ISP service. This isn't about national security they are willing to screen our online activity to protect a market share. In whose interest is this? And free market, what free market?​

 

I am not saying that we do nothing, but I don't know how voting for proven liars is going to do much good.

Everyone in our military can refuse to go to wars until the reason for war is justified (So far, it hasn't been). A friend once said, "It's not the soldier's fault that congress is inept". Well, if their reasons for going to war has proven to be faulty, then what good is it to help them by supporting these wars? Don't just blindly take on orders and that applies to everyone in every profession. The excuse for committing many crimes in the past was "Well, I had an order". B.S. Many soldiers refused to transport nukes across country in that B52 bomber a year ago, now everyone that refused is now dead. Coincidence? (The pentagon so conveniently noted that they would investigate themselves... lol)

Another friend once said, "You couldn't walk 75% of the streets in Iraq without being shot at". This is after he admitted that the reason why they hate Americans wasn't because they were the 'evil infidels'. It's pretty obvious that the Iraqi people are banding together to take out the invaders. I am 100% confident that the same 'insurgents' would spring up in America if we were invaded. Don't support wars where the people aren't even happy about the so called, 'help'. This is reminiscent to what the Roman's did to England. There is good reason why so many ex-soldiers supports non-interventionists like Ron Paul, and why so many went AWOL. I don't believe for a moment that it's just cowardice but an understanding that this entire war is meaningless, and the same thing is going to happen with Iran, the very same thing.

We live in a country where the VA refuses to give soldiers aide with obvious legitimate disabilities. This man's face was practically blown off and the VA said he wasn't qualified for aide... We didn't take care of our soldiers in the 70's and we aren't taking care of them now, because they simply don't care.

There are so many possibilities, but the first step is awareness that something is wrong. I honestly believe that we are already living in a police state, there is ample evidence to suggest this. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mAWslHmiok I know that it's from Alex Jones, but it's real footage and the (peaceful) protestors have legtimate anger for what happened).

"So you think there has been a ‘conspiracy of the likeminded’ and this has corrupted the system so much that it isn’t possible for it to change?"

Yes 'conspiracy of the likeminded' makes most sense to me. Nope, we can definitely change this. With 34% of all American's believing that the government is somehow complacent in the attacks, something is going to happen. Even if the 9/11 conspiracy isn't true (I believe that it is - If it isn't, many still benefited from this war and it's undeniable) , if this leads to a revolution that reshapes this country for the better then good. People are tired of being screwed over and it's no mistake that black people are a lot more open minded to these conspiracies then those that haven't felt the pressure from the men 'upstairs' (Just watch an episode of Boondocks). We live in an age where we think it's normal for a group of people to live in misery in a country that promises to end poverty and has the resources to actually do it. We look to the government and think, "No, impossible, the government works for us. They wouldn't purposefully do this to their own people? (That's if these people considers you at all)" They have before (White flight) and they will again. The government does work for us, but not all.

My solution is to take power away from these people and I'll be happy if people could brainstorm this because admittedly, I am not perfectly knowledable about that type of subject.

We can start by not fueling the system that these people depend on. See, many revolutions attacked the figurehead while leaving those in the background behind, thus never truly solving the problem. This is one of the reason's why I don't believe in violent protests (I strongly believe in the effectiveness and the logic behind Satyagraha). When you violently oppose a system, you just end up opposing the mask of that system- We attack the system and ignore those that have brought that system about.
"We must recognize the chief characteristic of the modern era--a permanent state of what I call violent peace." ~Admiral James D. Watkins

The evil that is in the world almost always comes of ignorance, and good intentions may do as much harm as malevolence if they lack understanding.
~Albert Camus

People like Einstein and Ghandi were geniuses. You can begin to see the logic behind pacifism.

"The theory of satyagraha sees means and ends as inseparable. The means used to obtain an end are wrapped up and attached to that end. Therefore, it is contradictory to try to use unjust means to obtain justice or to try to use violence to obtain peace. As Gandhi wrote: “They say, 'means are, after all, means'. I would say, 'means are, after all, everything'. As the means so the end...”

 

Gardener, let me present you with something that you may be interested in:

http://ni4d.us/

 

The thing is do people elect politicians that represent their interests or are they persuaded to elect people and ideas that might not represent the peoples will.

It has been argued in such books as What’s the matter with Kansas (renamed ‘What’s the matter with America’ in the UK) that working class voter were persuaded to vote against their interests by right wing propaganda that concentrated on the ‘cultural’ divide and portrayed liberals as ‘elitists’.

(In the way that an elitist, rich, establishment, west coast figure like Bush minor was sold as a good old boy, from Texas)

First up a representative may have received campaign contributions from rich donors or other assistance (adverts from supportive ‘citizen’ groups)

Next the wealth financed lobby firm might present the things they owners and clients want turned into law but behind such lobbyists are the wealth financed think tanks and paid for ‘academic research’ that the lobbyists use to present their case.

But these same think tanks also push their ideas and research out into the mainly sympathetic wealth owned media (where they are often reported as ‘fact’) and from their it filters down to the right wing shock jocks who try to persuade their listeners to write to their representatives to support the ‘right’ things.

A representative then not only has the best ‘research’ and PR money can buy but supportive letters from voters.

But if there is no opposing voice and very little debate over these issues, how far is the ‘information’ people are gauging their views on a true representation of the facts?

 

It's definitely not objective fact if factual at all in most cases.

 

"The thing is do people elect politicians that represent their interests or are they persuaded to elect people and ideas that might not represent the peoples will."

Both.


I definitely agree with most of what you are saying. People are either being lied to in order to go against their interests, or businesses only care about the bottom line and support laws that benefit them. All agreed, everything you said, I agree.

We both agree that spreading misinformation is a great way in bringing an agenda to fruition.

I just think that this only lends itself to the scandals. Spreading rumors, misinformation, etc to get people to go against their best interest.

Do I believe that everyone is 'in on it'. Nope. They can simply be persuaded to go along with something because they believe that is in their best interest.

It's about a hierarchical system where the men on top know things that the guys on the bottom don't. For example, a police officer being told to stand down, even though it goes against his common sense, but listens because it is his job. These police officers may have the people's best interests at heart, but they are still enacting an agenda of another. They can be PART of the system, without being a willing participant - You can help bring about an agenda that isn't your own without realizing it.

This may be a very silly way of trying to explain myself, but if you look into the plot in the computer game, Baldur's Gate, you will see how a system like that can work (Iron Throne plot) *I recommend playing through the game*. Does this hold any ground with reality? Let's look.

 

"Satan is a master of deceit" - Lies have been used to control people for thousands of years.

The best device to spread lies = Television. A few years ago, my psychology teacher once told the class "shut off your televisions, it teaches you lies". I now know what he means.

----

The three will's of man that I know of is:

1. The will to power
2. The will to pleasure
3. The will to meaning

You can contribute the will to power to a 'selfish gene' described by Richard Dawkins, or you can contribute it to a mere will, or self determination. Whatever the cause, these people exist.

The fact is: There are people out there that want power for the sake of what that power entails: control, et al. People make the world seem as though these people don't exist; that the world is immune to such ugliness and evil.

 

Ugh.... Alex Jones.

Only Alex Jones would show a shot of Roméo Dallaire and say "They are nothing more than servants of the corrupt global establishment, servicing their every whim..." in the same breath.

Shame on you Alex Jones.