Consciousness, A Discussion

Mountain Valley Wolf · Dec 17, 2015

The challenge is to Goswami to float because

There's only two ways to interpret what Goswami said a) he directly thinks he controls the material world with his consciousness and therefore should be able to accept the challenge to float or b) it's a bunch of verbal mumbo jumbo that has no real meaning.
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No, those aren't the only ways to interpret what Goswami said------he said that it is, "...possible movements of consciousness," and then said that, I choose, "...moment by moment my experience." He didn't say that he has control over what he chooses, or that he chooses exactly as he wants moment by moment, or even that it is chosen with his ego-based conscious mind.

After all, we all know that moment by moment life does not go how we want it to. If you asked Goswami about this, I'm sure that he would explain to you that even if a part of him did believe that he could float, life experiences and empirical evidence would clearly tell him that the bigger possibility is that he would fall---and the material world is possible movements of consciousness. If a part of him believed that he could float in the air, and another part of him believed that he would fall to his death----which part would win out in the eventual outcome?

If most religious people were truthtful, they would tell you that fear is a much stronger emotion than faith and belief. A person who believes they could float in the air, even if they believe it is based on science, probably should not test this by risking their lives and jumping out a window. They better 'know' they can float in the air before doing such a thing.

It's been a few years since I've seen 'What the bleep do we know,' but it seems to me that they even talked about having negative outcomes occur because of negative thoughts.

We know this kind of thing happens all the time----psychology even understands this. Take for example most lottery winners----statistics demonstrate that most winners, no matter how big the winnings are, eventually end up poor, or at least back where they started. Why does this happen? Because the winnings challenge the subconscious perception they have of themselves. They may have struck it rich, but subconsciously they do not believe themselves to be rich----they therefore waste money and do foolish things until they have lost all that money. They typically do not even realize what they are doing----but it is all about their maintaining their self-image of themselves.

I therefore find it ridiculous in such discussions to suggest that someone go against logic, reason, and common sense in order to prove a point, when is that very logic, reason, and common sense, that plays out in determining their reality.

guerillabedlam · Dec 17, 2015

^ you didn't post ... the entire quote

ChinaCatSunflower02 · Dec 17, 2015

Well if you call the conclusions of even Quantum Physicists with Ph.D's Pseudoscience then I'm not sure what ISN'T Pseudoscience.

I don't see what the hell floating in the air has to do with anything at all. That's a terrible example and way to test Non-Locality or Non-Local Consciousness.

guerillabedlam said:

PSEUDOSCIENCE
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guerillabedlam · Dec 17, 2015

ChinaCatSunflower02 said:

Well if you call the conclusions of even Quantum Physicists with Ph.D's Pseudoscience then I'm not sure what ISN'T Pseudoscience.

I don't see what the hell floating in the air has to do with anything at all. That's a terrible example and way to test Non-Locality or Non-Local Consciousness.
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Just because he has some ideas that can be considered pseudoscience doesn't mean all his ideas are nor does it invalidate his education. Great challenge posited by Shermer!

ChinaCatSunflower02 · Dec 17, 2015

Well he is presenting his ideas as Science, so it sounds to me like you're being picky and just sifting through the stuff that sounds too airy-fairy and calling it Pseudoscience.

guerillabedlam said:

Just because he has some ideas that can be considered pseudoscience doesn't mean all his ideas are nor does it invalidate his education. Great challenge posited by Shermer!
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guerillabedlam · Dec 17, 2015

ChinaCatSunflower02 said:

Well he is presenting his ideas as Science, so it sounds to me like you're being picky and just sifting through the stuff that sounds too airy-fairy and calling it Pseudoscience.
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Where is the experiment to test the hypothesis?

guerillabedlam · Dec 17, 2015

This is from the wiki on What the Bleep?

The film has been criticized for both misrepresenting science and containing pseudoscience and has been described as a case of quantum mysticism;
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so it's been noted as having pseudoscience, maybe the director's took some liberties with goswami's statements, I'm just going by what was posted.

ChinaCatSunflower02 · Dec 17, 2015

I already have posted Goswami's test

guerillabedlam said:

Where is the experiment to test the hypothesis?
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Chodpa · Dec 17, 2015

ChinaCatSunflower02 said:

What I'm tired of is being asked to "SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!!!!!" and then I do and the only response I get it is "Charlatanism!" "Blasphemy!" ....he's a Quantum Physicist with a Ph.D and he's not the only one interested in Non-Locality. What more do you want? How are you comparing him to Deepak Chopra?

I don't think he tried because he has a streak of charlatan in him, not Deepak Chopra status but still, but regardless The challenge is in this universe anyways.
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deep gave my graduation speech - he was a maharishi pundit - his guru is oprah - and he is full of shit - can't write - tried to read, 'Merlin?' there's a reason why you didn't. his primordial sound techniques sucked - he ripped off the sri yantra for a five minute staring meditation

pundit
pundits
all you - this man is soooo great
are punditures

think for yourselves

Mountain Valley Wolf · Dec 19, 2015

Here is the last part of my post that I did this evening in the thread on Quantum Mechanics and determinism:

Mountain Valley Wolf said:

[size=NaN]If we consider the double slit experiment, where light or other quanta is directed through two slits, we do in fact see that the quanta pass through the slits as either a wave, or when we try to measure how many ‘particles’ are moving through the slits, as particles. They do not go through as both. In other words, in that specific point of the experiment, they have to be one or the other.[/size]

[size=NaN]But it is not as simple as all that. As I have demonstrated, it is only in the specific moment of Now, or what I refer to as the Quantum Now, that physical reality manifests. I have also demonstrated that from an existential standpoint, a quantum exists only as a wave or a particle at any given moment, not both. I then pointed out that only particles exist in the physical sense, while waves exist in the non-physical fourth dimension. If we put all this together we come to an understanding that the physical point of now only represents all that physically exists. The non-physical is irrelevant, or non-existent, in the physicality of the present. [/size]

[size=NaN]Consider for a moment that if someone were to shine a very powerful light, sideways across the front of your face, it doesn’t matter how powerful that light is, you would never see the waves of light streaming across right in front of your face. (We are, of course, ignoring the light that hits particles of dust and so forth). It is only if the light was positioned such that part of the beam entered into your eyes that you would be able to see the light. In fact, at any given moment, there is light shooting by in all kinds of directions all around us, even away from us. But we can neither see nor perceive, this light. It is only the light entering into your eyes that you can actually see. Just as the light approaching you from a distant star, 4 Million Light Years away, none of this light exists within your present moment of now, except for that very light which you are seeing right now. Which makes sense because it is a wave—a fourth dimensional nonphysical existent.[/size]

[size=NaN]On the other hand, the light waves hitting your eyes, are each hitting atoms within the vision cells of your eyes, and are thereby undergoing a probability wave collapse, from a super-positioned wave of light, to a physical particle—a photon. (In fact, it is not only the photons, but the atoms themselves that undergo a probability wave collapse, as both super-positioned waves (the atom and the light) suddenly have a specific position in space-time.) At the same time there are electrons transferring from atom to atom all along the nerve cells of your eyes, and across neurons within your brain. Each of these, as long as they were induced by vision, represents a photon absorbed from a previous quantum now, and each one representing in the now a probability wave collapse. (While those not induced by vision, still represent probability wave collapses, but are not a part of this example. They might, for example, represent the physical structure of the nerve itself, or represent other perceived phenomena.) The quantum now represents all simultaneous probability wave collapses clear across the universe. [/size]

[size=NaN]Within that quantum now, clear across the universe, space-time as three-dimensional physical reality manifests for that brief, infinitely small, moment of time. Where it exists, there is the physical. Everywhere else, literally everywhere in between, within, around, and beyond, is nonphysical. Each of these probability wave collapses that we have described are ‘decoherent’ probability wave collapses, meaning that they are the result of quanta interacting with other quanta in such a way that their mutual positions are, for one quantum now, determined.[/size]

[size=NaN]In that case then, you may wonder, if only the physical manifests within the physical present, and a wave is a nonphysical, then how are we able to observe a wave in the double slit experiment? The answer is very important to the problem of whether or not a ‘conscious observer’ is involved in the double slit experiment. [/size]

[size=NaN]What we are observing is not a wave, but the interference pattern created by the wave when it strikes the screen. This is the result of decoherence: as the waves strike the screen, they are absorbed by the atoms and are therefore undergoing a probability wave collapse (along with the atoms of the screen they are being absorbed into). In other words, as they strike the screen, they manifest as physical photons. Then, in a process we understand as ‘reflection,’ the atoms release another photon (a new probability wave collapse), which then move as waves off the screen, some of which we perceive as photons within our eyes. In other words, we can never perceive the nonphysical waves, but only the phenomena produced in the physical realm by its physical manifestation. More simply put, we are seeing the interference pattern only because the waves became particles. [/size]

[size=NaN]This presents a problem for scientists, obsessed with materialist dogma, who try to explain that it is the measurement itself, and not a conscious observer, who causes the probability wave collapse in the double slit experiment when we try to measure individual particles. If their argument were true, then it is simple decoherence that causes this probability wave collapse to occur (i.e. that the wave of light interacts with a wave of energy used to measure the individual particles causing both waves to collapse into particles). The reasoning would follow then that the decoherence happens within the experiment rather than at the end, which is why we see a reflection of the two slits, as if it was particles moving through the slits, rather than the interference pattern of the waves.[/size]

[size=NaN]The first problem with this argument is whether or not the light exists as a photon only for the exact moment of the probability wave collapse before returning to a wave, for it is only in that moment that it has a specific position in space-time. The second problem, which will become more problematic as we shall see, is that scientists most likely forget to consider that even the wave undergoes decoherence when it registers the interference pattern on the screen.[/size]

[size=NaN]But the more critical problem to this argument is presented by the Wheeler Delayed Observation Experiment. In this version of the Double Slit experiment, it has been shown that it doesn’t matter whether you measure or observe the photons going through the slits before, during, or after they pass through the slits, the results are always the same reflection of the double slits. In fact, quantum physicists agree that if you were to place the double slits near a star many light years away, focusing the light onto a measuring device on earth, that you would still get the same slit pattern on the screen once you measure the particles even though the light passed through the slits many years ago. This creates a paradoxical situation for scientists and many argue that it demonstrates that we are in fact changing the past. The rational is that the light must travel through the slits as particles for them to reflect the double slits, and yet we are changing them to particles after the fact. [/size]

[size=NaN]However, if the waves represent a non-physical existent of the timeless 4[sup][size=NaN]th[/size][/sup] dimension, then time is no longer an issue. Another way to consider this is that what we are changing, from an existential perspective, is a ‘reality’ concerning that light—light that is always approaching us from our future, even if it originates within our past.[/size]

[size=NaN]But more importantly, if the measurement, or observation, itself represents an occurrence of decoherence, then how can that be any different from the decoherence that occurs as the light hits the screen without any measurement. Since the time and location of the measurement/observation does not matter, then the decoherence encountered at the screen should produce the same results as the decoherence encountered anywhere else in the experiment. But clearly the results show otherwise. If the argument that it is the measurement itself that causes the wave collapse were true, then we should have never encountered the interference pattern, even in the very first double slit experiment roughly several hundred years ago. [/size]

[size=NaN]On the other hand, we know that a scientist is not actually observing a photon moving through the slits. In any version of the experiment, what is happening is that an observer, as I just said above, is aware of a physical reality. The difference between measuring a particle and not measuring it in this experiment is that there is a conscious awareness or knowledge, always after the fact (but we could also argue in anticipation of the fact), when we measure individual particles, that there is a particle moving through the slit. It seems very clear that the conscious observer is very important to the probability wave collapse registering the double slits.[/size]

[size=NaN]There is a fundamental difference between a probability wave collapse resulting from decoherence, and one involving a conscious awareness of a state of reality. It doesn’t matter whether the awareness happens before or after this state is determined, other than that the perception of the phenomena resulting from this state occurs in the present. [/size]
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connorguy1234 · Mar 8, 2016

But what if it just is poverty,rape,murder,pedofiles, but its actually a little more reasonable= we came from mud, mothernature hates us, and is there even a meaning to life, what if it goes black like an old tv witha dot fading, you wouldnt be scared, you wouldnt think well its blackness, simply you wouldnt exist you wouldnt be scared, just.. nothing,people are scared of losing control but, take for instants fallout 4= everyone is scared they dont want to die but, simply what is going to happen has already happened every second after the time you are born you are dieing,but still take some time to just look around try to make what you got a good life, everybody dies, everybody blacks, people shouldnt be scared time is a single demension, on purpose= to keep everything from happening at once, we had a chance here on earth, we killed mother nature and we are killing our own species so for th epeople who read hopefully find peace somewhere and accept this. goodbye.

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Consciousness, A Discussion

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Consciousness, A Discussion

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