Christian Anarchism

To read further:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_anarchism



So, what are the thoughts of Christians in here about Christian Anarchism and how it could/does apply to your faith and your relationship with the Big Guy?

It seems to me that the hierarchical nature of the church and it's teachings are keeping a lot people away from a personal relationship with god, not drawing them to god, not only that but it also appears(to me) that the hierarchical nature of the church and it's teachings are not giving devoted christians the kind of "bigger purpose" that so many seek. this especially seems to be a problem with mega-churches who are more interested in entertaining bored middle-class families than they are making a real impact in regards to the the poor, the sick, the disenfranchised...

 

Are there even any more christians left in this forum?


You'd think that a hippy site would be a lot more open-minded and a lot less judgemental and generalizing than the xtian-bashers have been...

 

I can't see how c/anity is compatible with anarchy.

The thing is authoritarian in its whole basis, even if you take the churches out, there's still a judgemental god up there who it is claimed, has definite ideas about how we should live, so we can't really have free choice under such a system, and without choice, how can you have anarchy?

Not only that, but c/anity is in fact the enemy of free thinking even. One is supposed to simply accept the word of the bible, and not question or doubt anything.
In past ages, people thought their kings and queens were directly appointed by god - that's more the christian mentality than anything approaching anarchy. Same attitude prevails today for instance in those who think their cuntry is 'god's country' etc.

 

Sorry, i should have clarified more.
This thread is directed at christians, not non-christians.

So, if i could get a christian perspective on Christianity and Anarchism, please...

Also: Judaism, Christianity and Islam can't be summed up in generalizations, each has various sects that can differ drastically from one to the other...

Not all christians consider their country to be god's country just as not all jews support zionism and not all muslims are suicide bombers.

 

Since you're not asking me, I'll keep my answer brief.
Just to clarify - I didn't say ALL christians regard their nation as god's country. However, in the usa for instance, there are a certain number who do, and they are trouble makers.

Anyhow - jesus injunction 'render unto ceaser the things that are ceasar's' would tend to indicate that a bland acceptance of repressive authority is what is required.

As Jhonny Rotten said 'Iam an anti-christ/I am an anarchiyst'. He was right in so far as the two are incompatible.

 

We could throw scripture around with an atheist/agnostic all day, but that's not where my interests lie.

And with all do respect to Jhonny( i love him as much as the next guy), he's a rock star, not the begining and end of anarchist theory.

 

I don't think JR is or was much of a philosopher - but 'out of the mouths of babes...'


Trouble for a pure anarchist with the quotes you give, is that the god referred to is authoritarian in nature as he is depicted in the bible, and has definite rules, which if not obeyed will result in punishment. Hardly a recipe for freedom in any ultimate sense as far as I can see. Anyway - I'll leave it to christians to prove me wrong.

 

I can see your point, "no gods, no masters" kind thing.

As far as "pure" anarchism, has there ever really been one?

I see too many anarchists bicker about what is "real anarchism".

post-lefts, primitivists, ancaps, syndacalists, anarcho-commies...

at some point you just have to try and find some common ground.

And as much as i can't stand the authoritarian nature of mainstream xtianity, jesus had some fantastic teachings, and there are those who are able to reconcile faith with non-heirarchical living.

I'm trying to figure out how they are able to do that (might have something to do with growing up in judeo-christian culture), hence this thread.

 

I'd say that from an anarchist point of view, our sense of what is right and wrong has to be something that comes from inside us, not based on any kind whatsoever of external moral code.
An anarchist society could only work if it was composed of self-regulating people.
Some christians have had this idea, in a strong or a weak sense. The idea is that the holy spirit within the true christian informs all his moral and other choices and acts, so no external law, such as the jewish law of the OT is needed.
In effect, it is only a few very radical sects who have held the strong version of this view, or sought to put it into practice.

In England, during and after the Civil War of the 17th century, there were christian sects who taught this idea, but they quickly became very marginalized. Today, they have totally disappeared. Very little of their ideas passed into popular culture.
There have been other christian sects also with similar 'anarchistic' ideas - and in general, throughout christian history, they have been stamped on by the authorities.

Myself, I think some people are capable of governing themselves, whilst others, sad to say, are not. I don't think it is necessary to have any particular belief or lack of belief in order to be a good person.

 

I can't believe that way.

I believe every person has the capacity for self-governance, they just would rather not, or are unaware that it exists as an option(take external authoriteis for granted and at their word).

Everyone is looking for answers.
And there are billions of answers that one could accept as The Answer.

I don't think anarchism is one of those.

I think it's a different way of approachment.

If you think about it, all paths can lead to non-heirarchical living, it just takes time, patience and understanding.

Talking to a communist? Bring up class and labor, something you might have common ground on and then go from there.
Libertarian? They're not fans of the State, good place to start.
Existentialist? If your gonna question everything you might as well question power structures.
Nihilist? If nothing has objective value why not live life on your own terms...

You can find common ground with just about anybody, why not build from it?

"An anarchist society could only work if it was composed of self-regulating people.
Some christians have had this idea, in a strong or a weak sense."

Some would argue (as tolstoy did) that this was jesus's intent.

Doesn't hurt to explore the idea further...

 

OK Shane so which is it? You posted the same thing in the Paganism Forum, only applying to Pagans. And why do you put so much faith in wiki? And why do you care who is an anarchist and who isn't? If it helps, I was born a Jew, raised a Christian, and am now a proud heathen, follower of Gaia, Cernunnos and Eponus. And I'm an anarcho-pacifist.

Please enlighten us as to what drives your search.

 

Well, this is an interesting question. Traditional Christianity has spent a lot of energy trying to justify human power structures as being a means of bringing about the kingdom of God on earth (as long as they're compatible with the Gospel, which they almost always aren't), and these human power structures have ususally done much more harm than good in that department. Even after so many centuries, so many 'Christian' governments enthusiatically supported wars, the death penalty, and many other things that were so obviously contrary to the Gospel. I wholeheartedly agree with the original post that asserted that so many of these governments and churches have alienated people from the Gospel and a personal relationship with God.

I'm familiar with a form of Traditional Catholicism that has not only developed a huge scepticism of the contemporary church but also of modern governments as well, believing that they have strayed so far from their original purposes as to not deserve any real allegiance. I basically agree with this.

If people really followed the teachings of Christ, there wouldn't be a need for much government anyway, except maybe to run the water department, etc.. I would think that the Amish would qualify somewhat as modern Christian anarchists, refusing to pay taxes, serve in the military, or accept government help. At any rate, it's a very interesting question. I certainly don't give our government hardly any allegiance at all, and I don't recommend that anyone else do so, either.

 

nothing more than a bit of soul searching.

I've been asking questions of various faiths offline and online lately.

 

I've always felt the same!

Ohio has a decent amish population (not as large as PA of course), i've also always been fascinated with the abhorence of modern tech as i'm not a huge fan of the expanding industrial/technological system.

 

Im involved with no less than about 20 different denoms in my city.
Everyone from Hutterites to Charismatic to Roman Catholic and so on.
There is no 'structured heirarchy' as you hear being rumoured about by antichristians all the time.
Astonishingly ignorant comments like "Its all about following what you are told by your leaders and dont question it"
Just mindboggling someone could make it through school and yet be so ignorant of the world around them they actually believe that.

IF ANYTHING we have farrrrr more than enough 'Christian Anarchy' to last us up the ying yang.
Can you just stop and realise we have a DIFFERENT Denomination for just about every 1000 people here in our typical city?
Almost ALL of those have one thing in common though - they do NOT have a 'heirarchy' and the congregation employs the Pastor.
Others do form in a 'heirarchy' type structure but the crazy ass thing about that is that even these guys have their own run-offs, renegades or sects that dont acknowledge this or that.

Take this even further to the individual denoms themselves.
You ACTUALLY THINK that your typical church group is made of people who 'do what the leader tells them'.
What the frick planet do you live on honestly?
Have you ever even been NEAR a church?
IF ONLY more people would stop and listen to their Pastors but instead it doesnt matter if Im in a Hispanic Evangelical, Mennonite, Lutheran (you name it) and just about every other Christian is battling for all kinds of ideas.
(not necessarily bad but believe me its in NO SHORT SUPPLY)

Christian Anarchy - we already got that mastered, down pat and in leaps and bounds.

For anyone else who keeps suggesting that Christians are living by 'all sorts of rules' Id really like to know which 'rules' they think they are talking about.
well maybe thats another thread anyways.

Good Topic Post btw!

 

Give un to God

What is God's
Give unto Ceasar
What is Ceasars

 

You're right...there's an amazing variety of Christian denoms and offshoots where I live as well. Through Christian friends, relatives, and co-workers, I've heard plenty of stories about internal politics, doctrinal disputes, and schisms within denoms as well as individual congregations.

I do not envy the person who holds the position of pastor, pulpit minister, or rector in a church of any size, and has to deal with a governing board. Somewhat-relevant: early in my career as an architect, I worked for a small firm whose core business was designing churces, and the building committees drove my boss to near-breakdown at times...and he could escape once the project was finished...the pastor couldn't.

The is one overriding "rule" for the majority of Christians, though ...what is IMO the myth of Original Sin, and the psychological hold that it has on Christians as a whole and individually...perhaps this is a good topic for a new thread.

 

LOL!

Believe it or not i've been to almost 15-20 different denoms (sometimes as a visitor, a few times as a member, asked to not come back once or twice, some of them didn't leave much of a lasting impression...), off the top of my head:

Catholic
Pentacostal
Charismatic
Baptist(is there a more splintered denom?)
Nazerene
Methodist
Lutheran
Dominion type(not sure of the "official" title/label of that denom)
Episcopalian(sp)
Greek Orthodox(great festivals, great food, cool people)

time spent with each denom varies between 2 weeks and 2 years depending on the denom.

Of course that doesn't include contact i've had with christians from different denoms outside of a church setting.

Some of my families closest friends (and one or two of mine) are or have been pastors, revs, youth group leaders, council members and whatnot of one variety or another.

So yeah, i've been "near a church"...

(keep in mind that the OP wasn't directed at christians as individuals, but what could be termed "mainstream christianity"[the largest and most prolific of the denoms], and i did specifiy a particular kind of church [mega-churches] in the OP)

I didn't think that it would hurt to bring up a specific type of christian faith/practice that i myself find appealing, namely of course Christian Anarchism(being an anarchist myself).

 

Yet you use a modern computer for communication.

The amish are backward looking - all that is the past, not the future.

 

Didn't say i was a technophobe, just that i wasn't a fan.
the future looks bleak as hell, but you can't fight the tide single handedly.

The industrial/technological system always takes far more than it gives, but that is a discussion for another thread.

my 99 bottles forum has several threads on the issue if you are interested.

And the amish are awesome. they just need to get rid of those funny beards and straw hats.