Children Prosecuted As Adults. How Young Is Too Young?

In Wisconsin children at the age of 10 can be tried as an adult.

Law states the following:
A juvenile who is alleged to have attempted or committed a violation of s. 940.01 or to have committed a violation of s. 940.02 or 940.05 on or after the juvenile's 10th birthday.

940.01-First-degree intentional homicide.
940.02-First-degree reckless homicide.
940.05-Second-degree intentional homicide.

Payton Lautner at age 12 was stabbed 19 times on May 31st 2014.

Payton survived.

Anissa Wier and Morgan Geyser are accused of stabbing Payton and leaving her for dead in the woods.

The two girls Anissa and Morgan admitted to the stabbing to the police but now BOTH currently are pleading not guilty by reason of insanity. They were inspired to kill Payton to appease "Slender Man " a fictional character.

Morgan was diagnosed with schizophrenia, and Anissa was diagnosed with a delusional disorder and a condition known as schizotypy.

Both of the accused are about to be tried in a few months under state law as an adult. The parents and the defense attorneys are still arguing to get this trial under juvenile court jurisdiction.

I understand that children can commit heinous crimes, but at the age of 10 or at the age of 12 (in this specific case) to be tried as an adult is ABSURD . Children are brought up in a violent world of video games, movies, television, books and the Internet. Where were the parents in all this with clinically diagnosed children. I blame the parents for this crime happening not the children.

If these now 14 year old girls are tried as adults and found guilty as adults, it will be 2 more lives that are lost forever.
I'm happy that Peyton is alive, but Annisa and Morgan should be given a chance to live as well, and not in a prison or behind any bars.

Below is the news article of the "Slender Man case " if you are interested in more specifics.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4126850/Payton-Leutner-two-years-Slender-Man-stabbing.html

 

I appreciate you wanting to stand up for these girls. However, I feel if these girls were able to commit such a heinous crime as this at ages 10 and 12...there is literally no telling what they might do when they got older. The fact that these girls did this to their "friend" is even more telling...all to pay homage to "slender man".

The article doesn't say when the 2 stabbers were diagnosed. It seems rather convenient if they hadn't been diagnosed prior to deciding the thing to do was to stab their friend 19 times.

It has been my experience that "normal" children don't decide to stab their friend to "prove" their belief in a fictional character. The choice to take this kind of action goes far beyond blaming the parents, unless these parents also chose to stab people to prove what they believe in...which I highly doubt.

I think they need to be committed to a mental institution, and I also think its better they were institutionalized rather than risk the lives of other people. Its good they were caught or there might be any number of stabbed and/or dead people left in their wake.

 

Lynn, I think along those lines, also....a killer is a killer is a killer is a killer....no matter what age.....and i say lock em up.

 

A similar case involved a seven year old who shot and killed a six year old classmate in front of her 22 first grade students. The gun was stolen and his father was wanted at the time for parole violation.

To merely blame the parents is to ignore the fact that society has created and still supports the problem. Freud's original theory was that psychological problems were caused by bad parenting, but nobody wanted to hear that. So, he did massive amounts of cocaine and wrote a new theory insisting it was all about sexual frustration and went on to promote cocaine and psychoanalysis as the answer to all our problems, thus, he became the wildly successful father of modern psychology.

A study of death row inmates discovered that, not only did most of them come from abusive backgrounds, but most of them had significant brain damage. In such cases, they can lose their impulse control and, instead of merely wishing they could kill someone, they actually go out and kill them. Evidently, society as a whole has been abused and has brain damage making the question of how young is too young to be prosecuted as an adult purely academic.

 

I agree with all of the above, but surely this is an argument for having them committed to a mental institution for further evaluation and rehabilitation, not an argument for having them tried as adults in the criminal justice system?

I also don't blame the parents. I blame the mental health conditions that they were clearly labouring under and whatever gaps in the system they fell through for these things not to have been caught sooner.

I think the entire concept of an age of responsibility is undermined by trying people as adults when they aren't. You can't say "under a certain age you are not responsible for your actions because you are incapable of fully understanding their consequences" and THEN say "unless what you did is really, super bad, you guys."

Huh? you're either responsible for something or you aren't. the nature of the thing has no bearing.

 

I'm sure some of you will have heard the name, "James Bulger"
The little 2 year old killed by two 10 year olds 23 years ago in Liverpool?

If not here are some details..
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_James_Bulger

What those children did to that baby, doesn't bare thinking of!
They had been watching films, while playing truant from school!
They went out to "steal" a child..And did!

They are out of prison now, new identity etc..One has been back to prison for child sex crimes!

His mum lives that nightmare every day!

There is no end for her!

Those boys were never going to be any use to the world, and should have been locked away for ever!

Don't underestimate a ten year old! They are not all alike!

 

Here is some terrible reading, and some more on the above crime!

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/real-life/362038/Kids-who-kill-The-most-shocking-child-murders-in-British-history

This child I had sympathy with, as she was almost the same age as me, so I kind of followed her story throughout my life..She is the only one I feel could have been saved, but was let down by authorities, which were rubbish back then!

Her story, is worse than what she did, in a strange way, I hope you understand what I mean, after you read this...https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Bell

 

To Wu Li:
I agree...except that I do think it is possible for a person to be born with a certain mind-set/heart-set. In the case of a "true-born" (my term lol) sociopath, it is not surprising to me they could/would do something like this. Then there will be people that are born followers, and can be talked into/pressured into doing relatively anything by a stronger alpha "A" personality.

I don't think the alpha sociopath falls through a gap in the system; but, the earlier they are identified the better - for mankind.

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To autophobe:
I don't really think prison is the place for personalities such as these girls. As I said above, I think one is the alpha sociopath and came up with this - and she for definite certainty needs to be placed where she is watched every moment. The follower also would need to be monitored because she will probably feel compelled to seek out the other, her leader.

Of course this is all just my supposition, but this is what I believe. I studied this in college, and worked with adults that had both mental and physical disabilities.

For what it is worth, I've known a couple of sociopaths in my life...and these are very very dangerous people. These are people that were always the way they have been, since day 1. To not make them responsible because they haven't reached an arbitrary age is both wrong and irresponsible.

 

I remember distinctly reading about that crime and even went to trouble to keep up with it...and it is absolutely horrifying.

Dear God, that poor sweet 2 yr old baby and what those filthy nasty fucked up animals did to him. As far as I'm concerned if you have a heart at all, this story will make you cry.

Those soulless dirtbags should never have seen the light of day...no question. No parole hearing. No Nothing.

Turn 'em out in general population.

 

Someone who has a mental condition which doesn't allow them to recognise the moral consequences of their actions is not responsible for their actions.

the role of the criminal justice system should not be to take vengeance on behalf of victims. It should be to make society safer and to rehabilitate offenders wherever possible. If a little kid does something horrific due to an undiagnosed or unrecognised mental condition and society's response is "fuck them, they're a monster, throw away the key" then two lives have been lost.

Similarly, if a person does something due to a mental condition and society's response is "fuck them, they're a monster, throw away the key" then often what that means in practical terms is that society is specifically withholding treatment from a mentally ill person (by putting them in prison instead of the mental health service) as punishment for something that they are not responsible for. And then that person gets out, criminal record, completely alienated by society, having recieved little to no mental health care. what happens next?

We have a natural inclination to want to "see justice done", but often this doesn't lead to a reduction in crime and it doesn't make society safer, it just satisfies our innate desire for retribution.

 

Lynn, I would do it myself!

You wouldn't believe what they still put that poor woman through, but she has never given up!

 

I humbly disagree. If a sociopath stabs someone because they have pissed said sociopath off...this person should be held responsible for their actions. I think it is up to us, as a society to hold murderers (and rapists, pedophiles, etc) accountable for what they do.

Simply because they don't recognize they are wrong and shouldn't do this - doesn't excuse their actions.

 

Children from an early age, know right from wrong, some just don't give a shit!
Some know exactly what they are doing!

If your squeemish, don't read this! But if you do! Notice not every injury is noted fully!
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/james-bulger-suffered-multiple-fractures-pathologist-reveals-two-year-old-had-42-injuries-including-1503297.html

Bootle, is where I was born and bread..The shopping centre was my shopping centre..So it's a clear image in my mind..

 

Perhaps you should look up "treatment" for sociopaths and get back to me on this treatment plan you think might work for someone with this disorder.

(hint hint - there is NO proven effective treatment)

and yes...I most certainly think that for the good of the whole, it would be best to keep a sociopath (most often a child killer, or attempted killer and serial killers) away from contact of "free" people. This person should be in some type of institution.

 

My argument was that such a person should be in a hospital not in a prison. Further to this, I believe that we should not give up on the central ideal of rehabilitation no matter how heinous the crime when a mental health diagnosis is considered to be the cause.

There is no cure for psychopathy or sociopathy (I assume that we are using the terms interchangeably from the conversation so far) but such a condition can be managed in the correct clinical environment (with appropriate security in place). I would argue that this is preferable to a "Lock 'em up because they're evil" approach.

 

I'm not going to read the article, but I'm more than familiar with the case.

But as I've said before, just because something is really, really bad doesn't mean that the person who did it is more or less responsible for it.

 

I do not care what someone's excuse is for murder...and I am not talking about self defense here......but yes, I have heard the brain is not formed like regular people's in some cases.....a killer's brain anatomy research......whatever......There are no excuses to turn a murderer back out into society where they could repeat it again......It is the innocent victim I have to side with every time. Shall we forget about them?

i know of people who had terrible childhoods with stories I cannot even repeat here, and that did not turn them into killers.
When do people start taking responsibility for their actions....and in some cases, yes, I blame parents...you see your kid torturing an animal.....red flag!

 

I understand your point of view.

What I outlined there was a summary of the Mcnaughten rule for establishing innocence by reason of insanity. It's pretty much the standard by which we still judge insanity in criminal cases (In the UK and I think in most states in America)

Personally, I prefer the Durham rule, because It offers a more complete approach to mental health/responsibility for crime.

If the standard of proof under mcnaughten is "At the time of the crime, did you understand right from wrong?" then the standard of proof for the Durham rule is "If a policeman was standing directly behind you, would you still have committed the crime?"

This way it also covers people operating under a delusion. I might know that killing you is wrong and I'll be caught and punished for it, but also believe that it is necessary because an alien has taken over your brain and will shortly take over the world. Under Mcnaughten I'm sane, under Durham I'm insane.

IIRC the Durham rule was briefly instituted in some states in the US, but then that bloke shot Reagan, and got off lightly because he was operating under a delusion and so under the Durham rule he was insane and not prosecuted as a criminal. So naturally, the law was really unpopular and got voted out of all the states where it was implemented. A great shame for the justice system, in my opinion.

I would stress that what I'm arguing for here is not "let 'em off because they're mental", I'm arguing that the knee jerk response of "lock 'em up", although morally satisfying, isn't particularly helpful. these people are ill and should be in hospital, even if it feels better to give them the worst punishment possible, it isn't right (in my opinion).

 

It is helpful to their possible NEXT victim.