"Cardboard kills" - does heavy LSD use result in loss of intelligence?

My former AA sponsor was in his drug-using prime in the 70's, and he did a good bit of LSD. He and his friends had a saying that "cardboard kills," cardboard meaning blotter, due to the fact that lots of people they knew did a lot of LSD and ended up messed up. Obviously, mental health issues of a neurotic/psychotic nature is a part of this, but he regularly implied that LSD use had ruined the intelligence of his friends, as well. One guy in the meetings talked very very slowly and seemed to be extremely out of it, and my sponsor wondered "how much acid did he DO?" This idea was confirmed when I was at a show once and I asked a guy who looked cool if he knew where any doses were, and he replied in a very slow, completely spaced out way, "I've got to stop dosing... I've got to stop dosing..." and he continued walking forward, completely spaced out. I just realized that it's quite possible he was on LSD at the time, although he wasn't characteristically alert...

The question is, what do people here think about short or long term heavy LSD use and intelligence? Of course we know about the possible neuroses and visual issues associated with L. Over nine months since my last trip, my vision is still filled with a noticeable amount of static. But what about the effects on intelligence - memory both short term and long term, problem solving, etc.? I wonder how much of my memory loss came from LSD, if any, and how much came from heavy marijuana use (a likely culprit) and somewhat heavy alcohol use. The problem is, it's going to be very tough to find people who have dosed many times and who have not also smoked fairly large quantities of marijuana.

Any thoughts?

 

I've honestly noticed no negative change at all. Maybe others around me have?

 

Oh yea, my hearing is not as good as it used to be. But thats probably from blasting Kashmir and Lightning Bolt songs so often :cheers2:

 

There was a study on that in the 60's or 70's, the report i think is linked on erowid, that showed minimal impact from long term heavy use.
The tests had a control group of normal people who have never aken acid and a group of mentally retard retarded people (or just slow or something).

The acid heads came off pretty much in normal range for most things if a little bit under the normal control group. But nothing extraordinary.

As for personal experience my dealer talks very slow and spaced out all the time sort of looses track of what he is saying halfway through a sentence. But i dont know if that is lsd, wee, ice, and whatever else he takes. As you said stayloose it really is hard to tell coz most people taking lsd have taken and regularly take other drugs which are known to fuck you up.

 

yeh its hard to say WHAT caused the old druggies to bumble over. But it is true that most older adults that ive talked to have friends who ended up folding over after years of acid use. Im sure they had even more friends who took acid and ended up fine. But a certain number of the population appears destined to become tarded

 

too much acid burns you out. i can see how dosing hundreds or even thousands of times could cause a noticable difference. i dont think its a direct result like killing brain cells. its just disconects you too much from normal reality

 

I haven't done LSD, but judging from the people I know who have done it (including an adult, who is *quite* an intelligent guy ), and the information that I've researched myself, that seems like the best explanation. Some people just totally loose grasp of reality, and so they become super spacey later in life.

However, yes, I don't have any personal experience.

 

Wasn't the government calling this burnout disease or zone out syndrome or some bullshit like that?

 

There is not enough data to conclude whether or not heavy, lifelong lsd use effects the brain in this way. I suggest playing it safe, but I'm a wuss

 

I agree that playing it safe is the best option. I mean, why not play it safe? I saw a great video on Youtube about global warming, and the guy made the obvious point that if we are cautious, the worst thing that can happen is that our economy isn't quite as productive, whereas if we deny the global warming is possible, then the worst that can happen is we forever ruin our only home! It's an easy choice, really.

 

I know a couple people who have taken it over 400 times and are pretty fine and well off. I also know some who are completely fucked in the head. But those people have also done/are on crack, heroin, pcp, etc.

I personally think LSD should be done like twice a year and not abused. It should be a personal learning experience and shouldn't really be used like pot. I don't know, that might just be me.

 

It does what you want it to.

I think you will find every 'burnout' will admit they didn't really like society and the straight world to begin with. It's not like acid ripped away from them, against their will, there wishes to be integrated and viewed as normal. No, that absurd. Acid simply gave them there wish, allowed them to become more and more disconnected from that which they did not want.

I firmly believe that what has the most change on LSD's effect is the intention behind it's use. People don't go up to an apparent burnout and ask "When using LSD what was your intention, what did you wish to gain from the experience?". No one does that, people just see someone who did something they do not like and so they then wish to use them as an example for their correctness.

Honestly, I think if you went and talked to even crack addicts, you'll see their outcome is still perfectly in line with their intention. It only gives you what you want. I think with the proper intention, LSD can greatly improve intelligence.

 

In theory I totally agree with your post and find it quite insightful. However, that's not really what I'm talking about. I'm talking about testable effects on intelligence after heavy use. Example - it's a known fact that doing a lot of ecstasy can permanently damage your emotions. It's also well known that alcohol abuse leads to reduced brain mass. I'm wondering if heavy LSD use, either short term or long term, leads to deficits in the brain's ability to process information, not whether heavy users of LSD become disenchanted by society/burned out in a social sense.

 

A
Consciousness Expander
that should not be exploited everything has a certain elasticity
over extend its shape/form is distorted/irrevocable
Tim Leary
Was my Mentor
And still is
outside looking in

 

Too much acid is like ASS FUCKING your neuroreceptors, it could really mess some things up with the specific ones that they intereact with... you know... That's not good.

 

SO as an after thought, no heavy LSD use won't "result in loss of intelligence" but it will fuck with your seritonin receptors and that will change some things about you.

 

Out of all the people 50 years old + I know who have done LSD, the ones who we're all about it and used it like I have are the most intelligent, satisfied, and self productive people I know, period. This leads me to believe that there are no negative effects, only negative people.

 

Well I'd completely agree with ecstacy causing some real damage because when I take it I can just feel that, yes this in fact doing some damage. And then waking up the next day and remembering I can clearly tell, yes some damage was done, that was not exactly healthy.

However LSD is completely different. It gives me a ton of energy and an afterglow for atleast a weak. Nothing about it feels unhealthy or damaging, my body feels exceptionally cleaned and balanced after LSD.

Yes it completely unwires your brain and in the process can alter alot of synapses. But they have shown that lsd is completely non-toxic and completely non-neurotoxic. So it's physically damaging nothing. All the synapses in your brain pulling apart, unhooking and rewiring. None of them get damaged in the process, none of them lose functionality, they simply get rewired.

This is why I say that intention is not just a theory, I'd say thats physically and literally how it works. When you push the reset button on your brain, it reforms, the synapses re-extend and rewire themselves based on your intention, your will. Based on what you want.

Which with that, I think it's quite obvious why LSD has caused alot of problems in the past for some people. Countless people approached LSD as though it were marijuana or even worse, alcohol. If you do LSD with the intention to 'get fucked up' akin to alcohol, then that intention is going to permanently lay itself down in your brain. I think with a proper and clear enough intention LSD can actually greatly increase your intelligence, increase your ability. I mean think about all the modern visionary painters who vouche towards psychedellics as a great aid in developing themselves.

And intelligence is really subjective. I mean, a guy who could draw an amazing picture might fail an English test straight up, maybe even seem a bit dazed in quick-witted conversation. It doesn't mean hes stupid, or damaged anything, it simply means he has rewired his brain to focus more resources towards being visually creative. Studies do not take anything like that into account.

 

Lots of good points... I agree that it's pretty easy to tell that ecstasy and alcohol are damaging your brain. However, I don't think it's obvious that LSD doesn't. At least it isn't obvious to me. It definitely is a different kind of feeling than an upper or alcohol, but I can't really say that it is a "healthy" feeling, either.

However, I think it's important to note that just because no neurons are actually killed doesn't mean that no "damage" has occurred. I see a tendency towards this narrow-minded view of "brain damage" on these forums, and it's just not accurate. If all LSD does is rearrange your connections and it happens to rearrange them in an unhealthy way, then damage to your nervous system has still occurred.

I agree with your general point about intentionality - it is definitely important. And I think the same is even true for alcohol. It seems to me like alcohol does the most "brain damage" to people who are seeking out that effect. There have been plenty of geniuses throughout history who drank a LOT (Winston Churchill, countless authors such as James Joyce and F. Scott Fitzgerald), and while I won't argue that they got away with it scot-free, it seems as though they had the kind of spiritual and intellectual toughness to power their way through the alcohol's effects in a way that someone who doesn't value his sense of intelligence would not.

Your final point on intelligence being multifaceted and subjective is a good one, but I do think that there are some things that can be measured objectively, such as memory. I think marijuana has made me more creative and sensitive in some ways, but I also think that it has harmed my memory. Perhaps there is a trade off.

 

quoted for truth