Can we now finally talk...?

The right to a home is the reason for all problems in Islam. The UN gave the “right to a home” to Israel.

Whether you think Israel belongs or not or if the Palestinians belong or not does not matter. The representatives of the UN set up an Indian Reservation called Israel. The UN is then responsible for providing security and peace for it’s “their Reservation” and failing to either admit responsibility for rightly or wrongly establishing the Reservation they, the UN is responsible for 9-11 because the reservation is the root of all Islam hatred. If the UN made a mistake they should pass a resolution to correct the mistake. It is quite apparent they don’t think they made a mistake as you conclude. Therefore the UN is responsible for all impact of its decision and should be policing any party that tries to interrupt peace on “their reservation!”

Changeyourlatitude

 

You keep referring to the UN as if it were some independent body with the abitility to make and implement its own decisions. It is not. It is a forum where countries meet to discuss and sometimes reach agreements. Even then most important decisions are confined to the security council, and implementation is ultimately up to the member states.

"Blaming" the UN and saying "the UN should do this, that, etc." pretty much makes no sense.

 

Dude

You got to blame someone and the UN represents the world. The world just wants to blame the US. Granted the US is a Permanent member on the Security Council but we are not the lone member.

I’ll grant the US has helped Israel for homeland bias. But you cannot blame Palestinian problems on the US because the other members on the Security Council should have acted when the problem of displacement claims first appeared. They acted in Korea when the North Koreans attacked the South Koreans. That happened about the same time, why not a joint force in the region to sort it out like in Korea?

Changeyourlatitude

 

You are associating the Islam and Palestinian. Not all Palestinians are Muslim, a great many of them are Christian. Israel does not distinguish between Muslim and Christian Arabs.

You also are referring to Israel as some kind of reservation and trying to liken it to the reservations we have here in North America. Israel was NOT uninhabited when it was decided that was where the European Jews should settle after WWII.

The US is not being blamed for the problems between Israel and Palestine, however they do fund Israel as well as arming them. If the US stopped this practice it would help to re-establish trust Arab trust in the US.

There are a lot of lies and half truths about Palestinians that have been taken as gospel truth by North American's, and in this thread alone I've seen most of them. It tells me that the posters have not done any research on the subject at all and are just repeating propaganda.

 

and we also give a hefty sum of money to the palestinians

 

Really????? Just how much would that be? And if that was true don't you think the Palestinians would be running through those settlements with their own tanks and bulldozers??

 

around 100 million a year

http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/pubs/20001127ib.html

it is not military aid..its economic aid from what i can tell.

 

You don't read too well do you. What the PA gets they have to account for and it is controlled not by them but by the US. Israel gets over 80 billion a year and doesn't have to account for any of it. Notice how 75% of it must be spent in the US but no conditions on what it is spent on. What does it say they are buying???? Yeah...tanks and Apaches, and they are used for what????

It's nice to enable someone to bomb the shit out of someone else and then say you are giving aid and programs to those that are left behind just to ease your guilt.

Put the same conditions on Israel and see what happens. Take their tanks and Apaches away, and lets see how they fight then. My guess is they will go right back to the way they started. Homemade bombs and terrorist tactics.

 

Mari Read for background: http://wais.stanford.edu/MiddleEast/mideast_2andtruman5402.html

Read this link and tell me if I have posted bogas information.
http://www-pso.adm.monash.edu.au/news/Story.asp?ID=558&SortType=4
Have I presented lies and half truths?

Changeyourlatitude

 

The first one I already read, and didn't think too much of it. However I will go over it again.

The second I am reading now, but will have to get back to you in a bit. My kids just came home.

 

Nowhere near that amount. Got a source for that figure?

 

The problem with the 'money connection' is that this whole world is all jacked-up by these concepts of 'Loans'.

In theory - you can accuse the US (Germans, Japan, The UN, ...) of 'GIving' Billions to almost ANY country you can find on a map!

Taking that a step further - pick any country that is warring with another. Who's winning?
Lets say its Afghanistans vs Russia... ok... then 'technically' the USA is 'sponsoring' Afgans at war.

'Technically' some country somewhere is 'loaning' Nigeria 'Millions' and therefore you can say 'sponsoring' their persecuction of Christians and or whoever their government is after today.

It does so happen that Israel is an ally of the Americans and Brits - but - dont get all hung up on these World Bank money figures.
If you want to - you can argue that 'technically' the USA supports Palestinians because of World Bank 'Loans' and all these jacked-up financial figures going around.

 

Ok, first one doesn't really even begin to cover it and I still don't think much of it.

Second one I actually liked and think that the idea of a multicultural/multi-faith state is an excellent idea and one that could work and has worked in the past. The article states that not many Israeli's or Palestinians would agree to this, and I would have to disagree with that statement. The WHOLE problem with between Palestine and Israel is not so much it citizens but the fanatics that abound on both sides. They are determined to rid the world of one another not realizing that they are actually doing damage to their causes. There are however those on both sides that are more than willing to work together and create a state where Israelis and Palestinians can live and work in peace. Unfortunately they get drowned out by extremists and treated by some as if they are traitors to their faith and culture.

Hamas does not realize that by sending suicide bombers they are actually doing more harm than good. The west sees them as terrorists who care for nothing but killing Jews, the Arab world sees them as fighting for their people against an oppressor. By the same token the Israeli government does the same. They also don't realize that by demolishing homes, dropping missiles and bombs into heavily populated areas they are doing the same damage to their cause as Hamas is to theirs. The west sees Israel as fighting terrorists and trying to protect what they have built, the Arab world sees them as the real terrorists. All depends on what side of the wall you are looking at. I actually prefer to sit on the wall and look at both sides, even though by my posts you might not think so.

I don't happen to think that Arafat is any great prize, nor do I think that he has done anything to help his people. In actual fact he doesn't have much power, and truthfully was on his way out until the IDF surrounded his compound and held him captive. By doing that Sharon gave him more power and popularity than he had previously.

There are those in the PA that are more than willing to work WITH Israel and even Sharon one of them being Dr. Hanan Ashrawi, but being a woman she's not likely to get far.

I also don't think that Sharon is any prize either. He has a personal agenda that he has continued to carry out throughout his career. He is not called a butcher for nothing. If the truth were known he has more blood on his hands than all the suicide bombers put together. He and Arafat hate each other personally, and Sharon refuses to deal with the Palestinians peacefully because of it. People on both sides are paying for that hatred daily.

These two articles you presented in this post can not be considered lies or half truths as they are only opinions and really have nothing to do with the propaganda that the west is subjected to through the media. This is where the lies and half truths come in. Some of your other posts contained exactly those.

 

WRONG! Wrong to you Mari!

I did do some READING and LEARNING on this and it turns out YOU are the one spreading a propaganda message.

First - THE official story that is presented to the west and propogated by western media is:
There was a 'Nation' called Palestine and a people called 'Palestinians' and in 1948 these invading Jews took it over.

WRONG!

There were two countries called Jordan and Egypt. (Jordan was a newly created country itself but thats beside the point)

THERE WAS NO COUNTRY CALLED PALESTINE. PERIOD!

There was no distinct peoples called 'Palestinians'

Dont get into 'word games' either. 1,000's of years ago Romans destroyed Israel and re-named the region 'Palestine'.
The name 'Palestine' has NOTHING TO DO modern Egyptians and Jordanians who MOVED TO ISRAEL.

Before Zionism you could have found Bedouin and yes,,, even some Jewish remnants and even Christians ... NONE OF WHOM refered to themselves as 'Palestinians'.

Yes.. NOW you have many people that were born in Gaza or the West bank who call themselves 'Palestinians' and maybe in a few centuries they will become 'a people' but until then - they are JORDANIAN ARABS and ARABS from other countries.

Now lets talk about Propaganda..

EVERYONE in the western world is absolutely CONVINCED that Jerusalem is one of the great Holy Lands of Islam.
The Temple on the Mount is one of Islams three greatest HOly Places right?

BULL!

No its not ... and MUSLIMS NEVER THOUGHT THAT EITHER... until it became very important to gain world sympathy against ISrael!

THERE WAS NO NATION called Palestine so STOP pretending there was.

Keep something in mind - I AM NOT PRO-ISRAEL and in fact I have some extremely serious critisisms against what I consider 'Nazi tactics' (dare I say that!!) used againsts Arabs in Israel (who are NOW called 'palestinians')

Im just sick and tired of ARAB PROPAGANDA completely running western media into saying things that are NOT TRUE.

Here are some links to articles written by AN ARAB explaining why there is no 'Palestine'.

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=28222

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=15066

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=22564

STOp...

This IS NOT a war of 'propaganda' or 'a link battle' or a matter of 'Opinion'

ANYONE can examine recent history and even interview THE VERY PEOPLE WHO WERE THERE and find out there was NO NATION CALLED PALESTINE.

Its not 'Opinion' - its self evident reality that is there for everyone to see.

Now if we can just get PAST these contrived stories THEN we can get to the truth.
We wont get anywhere if people keep making up false stories... Israeli's OR Arabs!
(Or Westerns either!)

 

I REALLY hate to tell you that you are the one that is WRONG.

My in law's did NOT come from Jordan OR Egypt. They came from exactly where I said they did. They were NOT bedouin. They were well established families in Jaffa and Jerusalem and still are.

What I have said is not propaganda it is truth and it is out there if you care to find it. I spent the first half of my life believing the things you just posted. I've spent the last 25 learning what was real from people who where there.

Now read my last post.

 

yes, where did you get 80 billion dollars?

 

No you dont Mari!

Dont try and be tricky and change this around to 'where your family members themselves came from or passport names etc.

Answer the question - Was there a nation called Palestine?

NO!

Is there a Palestianian language?

NO

Does your families HISTORY come from an ethnicity called 'Palestinian'?

Answer the question directly Mari - WAS THERE A COUNTRY CALLED PALESTINE?

Look... Yasser Arafat is called a 'Palestinian' but he is EGYPTIAN.

Like ALMOST ALL Arabs living in Israel (which was once re-named Palestine by the Romans) Yasser Arafat and everyone in there COMES FROM some other Arab culture and country.

By YOUR STANDARDS.. ALL Israeli's are 'Palestinians' because they live in a region was dubbed 'Palestine' by the Romans.

 

Mari

Actually my intent on the second link was to show you that in 1947 the UN did make a resolution and take responsibility for the Israel Indian Reservation as stated in the second paragraph. The UN validated its, the reservation, existence. This was my point, that once the UN involved itself, as it did in the UN Police Action, better known as the Korean War, it was responsible for the police of the situation. I agree wholeheartedly with your writing: “The WHOLE problem with between Palestine and Israel is not so much it citizens but the fanatics that abound on both sides.” My point in totality was if the UN had involved itself in Israel as in the Korean Police action to resolve the problem in its infancy thousands of lives would have been spared. The terrorist events over the last forty years leading up to 9-11 could have been avoided by having a responsible adult to cause the two sides to work out the problems from the beginning.
I understand the tit for tat going on in modern times and the extremes in both parties. This is what I think a responsible adult could have avoided had they taken action back in 1947. Now no one can root for either side because either side can yarn a story for justification of cruelty. The UN was established to satisfy such a mandate and with such hostility just following a tremendous World War how they didn’t live up to the mandate and find the Koreas worthwhile I can’t justify in my conscious.

Not all Jews are Indians according to my studies, according to my studies only a select few form Russia after WWII can hold the Indian title to the property and neither are all Palestinians valid claimants for compensation. Some Jews view the Palestinians the same way some Palestinians view Jews that they just shouldn’t exist under their religion hard line readings.

Mari, I do not consider myself to be a scholar on the Middle East since I only became interested in recent years. My dad did his best to raise me as a bigot as he was a member of the KKK in my early childhood. My dad changed and I learned not to think that way maybe to the extreme. I like to debate and do my very best to present thought provoking factual information for others to consider. I ask anyone to beat me up if you see a lie or half-truths for I have no horse in the race. I’m not in either category of the fight there and the only contact I’ve had with a Jewish person was when I was 16 and my father was hospitalized and my mother moved to the town where I worked for a Jewish Grocer who worked me about 60 hours a week for $17.00 back in my home state of WV.

Please point out any mistakes I post so I may better understand the world around me.
Changeyourlatitude

 

Tricky? What is so tricky about a LEGAL document? They did come from there and who are you to deny that?

Yes, Yes, Yes, and Yes again. Shows how much you DON'T know. Palestinians have their OWN culture, their OWN traditions, their OWN language, and before 1948 they lived in a land called PALESTINE. Just because you say it isn't so doesn't make history disappear no matter how much some might wish it so.
That is WHY I say read and learn, seems that you didn't do much.

Just because Arafat came from Egypt does not mean that every Palestinian came from there as well. What an ignorant statement. Does every American ancestor come from the same place?

This is one of the lies that has been repeated over and over again. That land was inhabited by Jew and Arab alike for thousands of years. But that does not give one rights over the other.

Any person born in that area before 1948 was born Palestinian. Just like anybody born in the US is an American by birth.

 

Then please explain to me why I have been searching and searching old books and maps and CAN NOT FIND ANY SUCH THING AS A COUNTRY CALLED PALESTINE?!?!?

PLEASE PROVIDE US WITH A LINK?

Can you tell me when the country of Palestine was founded.. who was the president..

Please tell us WHY PALESTINIANS DIDNT FIGHT EGYPT OR JORDON when they were OCCUPYING this alleged nation of 'Palestine'?

Id also be interested in learning about the Palestinian Language, unique customs and food, traditions, songs BEFORE Jews arrived.

Will they just coincidently be the EXACT same as Egyptian or Jordanian cultures?

For once and for all Mari.. WAS THERE A COUNTRY CALLED PALESTINE?

DONT sneak around by saying 'A land'

The Amazon Basin is a 'region' but there is NO COUNTRY CALLED 'Amazon Basin' and the BRazillians do not occupy 'Basineria' do they?

Just admit it?