Brain science behind 'belief'

So there is a part of your brain that can make you percieve supernatural forces. Scientists have scanned brain activity and found that people of whatever culture meditating, 'praying', etc. use a certain portion of their brain more than usual.

From this alone, I conclude that the supernatural feelings are generated by the brain (whether this good or bad), not some outside force.


Here is a source I just looked over. This isn't where I got my information from, but if you have doubts about what I'm trying to say, check it out.

a monk's brain while in altered state of mind

http://www.crystalinks.com/medbrain.html

Areas of the brain activated during meditation

Tracing the Synapses of Spirituality

June 17, 2001 - Washington Post

In Philadelphia, a researcher discovers areas of the brain that are activated during meditation. At two other universities in San Diego and North Carolina, doctors study how epilepsy and certain hallucinogenic drugs can produce religious epiphanies. And in Canada, a neuroscientist fits people with magnetized helmets that produce "spiritual" experiences for the secular.

The work is part of a broad new effort by scientists around the world to better understand religious experiences, measure them, and even reproduce them. Using powerful brain imaging technology, researchers are exploring what mystics call nirvana, and what Christians describe as a state of grace. Scientists are asking whether spirituality can be explained in terms of neural networks, neurotransmitters and brain chemistry.

What creates that transcendental feeling of being one with the universe? It could be the decreased activity in the brain's parietal lobe, which helps regulate the sense of self and physical orientation, research suggests. How does religion prompt divine feelings of love and compassion? Possibly because of changes in the frontal lobe, caused by heightened concentration during meditation. Why do many people have a profound sense that religion has changed their lives? Perhaps because spiritual practices activate the temporal lobe, which weights experiences with personal significance.

"The brain is set up in such a way as to have spiritual experiences and religious experiences," said Andrew Newberg, a Philadelphia scientist who authored the book "Why God Won't Go Away." "Unless there is a fundamental change in the brain, religion and spirituality will be here for a very long time. The brain is predisposed to having those experiences and that is why so many people believe in God."

The research may represent the bravest frontier of brain research. But depending on your religious beliefs, it may also be the last straw. For while Newberg and other scientists say they are trying to bridge the gap between science and religion, many believers are offended by the notion that God is a creation of the human brain, rather than the other way around.

"It reinforces atheistic assumptions and makes religion appear useless," said Nancey Murphy, a professor of Christian philosophy at Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, Calif. "If you can explain religious experience purely as a brain phenomenon, you don't need the assumption of the existence of God."

Some scientists readily say the research proves there is no such thing as God. But many others argue that they are religious themselves, and that they are simply trying to understand how our minds produce a sense of spirituality.

Newberg, who was catapulted to center stage of the neuroscience-religion debate by his book and some recent experiments he conducted at the University of Pennsylvania with co-researcher Eugene D'Aquili, says he has a sense of his own spirituality, though he declined to say whether he believed in God because any answer would prompt people to question his agenda. "I'm really not trying to use science to prove that God exists or disprove God exists," he said.

Newberg's experiment consisted of taking brain scans of Tibetan Buddhist meditators as they sat immersed in contemplation. After giving them time to sink into a deep meditative trance, he injected them with a radioactive dye. Patterns of the dye's residues in the brain were later converted into images.

Newberg found that certain areas of the brain were altered during deep meditation. Predictably, these included areas in the front of the brain that are involved in concentration. But Newberg also found decreased activity in the parietal lobe, one of the parts of the brain that helps orient a person in three-dimensional space.

"When people have spiritual experiences they feel they become one with the universe and lose their sense of self," he said. "We think that may be because of what is happening in that area ? if you block that area you lose that boundary between the self and the rest of the world. In doing so you ultimately wind up in a universal state."

Across the country, at the University of California in San Diego, other neuroscientists are studying why religious experiences seem to accompany epileptic seizures in some patients. At Duke University, psychiatrist Roy Mathew is studying hallucinogenic drugs that can produce mystical experiences and have long been used in certain religious traditions.

Could the flash of wisdom that came over Siddhartha Gautama ? the Buddha ? have been nothing more than his parietal lobe quieting down? Could the voices that Moses and Mohammed heard on remote mountain tops have been just a bunch of firing neurons ? an illusion? Could Jesus's conversations with God have been a mental delusion?

Newberg won't go so far, but other proponents of the new brain science do. Michael Persinger, a professor of neuroscience at Laurentian University in Sudbury, Ontario, has been conducting experiments that fit a set of magnets to a helmet-like device. Persinger runs what amounts to a weak electromagnetic signal around the skulls of volunteers.

Four in five people, he said, report a "mystical experience, the feeling that there is a sentient being or entity standing behind or near" them. Some weep, some feel God has touched them, others become frightened and talk of demons and evil spirits.

"That's in the laboratory," said Persinger. "They know they are in the laboratory. Can you imagine what would happen if that happened late at night in a pew or mosque or synagogue?"

His research, said Persinger, showed that "religion is a property of the brain, only the brain and has little to do with what's out there."

Those who believe the new science disproves the existence of God say they are holding up a mirror to society about the destructive power of religion. They say that religious wars, fanaticism and intolerance spring from dogmatic beliefs that particular gods and faiths are unique, rather than facets of universal brain chemistry.

"It's irrational and dangerous when you see how religiosity affects us," said Matthew Alper, author of "The God Part of the Brain," a book about the neuroscience of belief. "During times of prosperity, we are contented. During times of depression, we go to war. When there isn't enough food to go around, we break into our spiritual tribes and use our gods as justification to kill one another."

While Persinger and Alper count themselves as atheists, many scientists studying the neurology of belief consider themselves deeply spiritual.

James Austin, a neurologist, began practicing Zen meditation during a visit to Japan. After years of practice, he found himself having to re-evaluate what his professional background had taught him.

"It was decided for me by the experiences I had while meditating," said Austin, author of the book "Zen and the Brain" and now a philosophy scholar at the University of Idaho. "Some of them were quickenings, one was a major internal absorption ? an intense hyper-awareness, empty endless space that was blacker than black and soundless and vacant of any sense of my physical bodily self. I felt deep bliss. I realized that nothing in my training or experience had prepared me to help me understand what was going on in my brain. It was a wake-up call for a neurologist."

Austin's spirituality doesn't involve a belief in God ? it is more in line with practices associated with some streams of Hinduism and Buddhism. Both emphasize the importance of meditation and its power to make an individual loving and compassionate ? most Buddhists are disinterested in whether God exists.

But theologians say such practices don't describe most people's religiousness in either eastern or western traditions.

"When these people talk of religious experience, they are talking of a meditative experience," said John Haught, a professor of theology at Georgetown University. "But religion is more than that. It involves commitments and suffering and struggle ? it's not all meditative bliss. It also involves moments when you feel abandoned by God."

"Religion is visiting widows and orphans," he said. "It is symbolism and myth and story and much richer things. They have isolated one small aspect of religious experience and they are identifying that with the whole of religion."

Belief and faith, argue believers, are larger than the sum of their brain parts: "The brain is the hardware through which religion is experienced," said Daniel Batson, a University of Kansas psychologist who studies the effect of religion on people. "To say the brain produces religion is like saying a piano produces music."

At the Fuller Theological Seminary's school of psychology, Warren Brown, a cognitive neuropsychologist, said, "Sitting where I'm sitting and dealing with experts in theology and Christian religious practice, I just look at what these people know about religiousness and think they are not very sophisticated. They are sophisticated neuroscientists, but they are not scholars in the area of what is involved in various forms of religiousness."

At the heart of the critique of the new brain research is what one theologian at St. Louis University called the "nothing-butism" of some scientists ? the notion that all phenomena could be understood by reducing them to basic units that could be measured.

And finally, say believers, if God existed and created the universe, wouldn't it make sense that he would install machinery in our brains that would make it possible to have mystical experiences? "Neuroscientists are taking the viewpoints of physicists of the last century that everything is matter," said Mathew, the Duke psychiatrist. "I am open to the possibility that there is more to this than what meets the eye. I don't believe in the omnipotence of science or that we have a foolproof explanation."

 

no where do I see any reason to believe that this has anything to do with "supernatural forces". Anybody believing in "supernatural forces" should definitely have their head examined but personally, I wouldn't waste much time with them. The belief in "supernatural forces" is delusional and doesn't help clarify anything.

 

My opinion:

Mankind should at least be able to understand our own uplinks to the higher realms (if they exist).

 

Indeed.

 

this is where alot of problems come in when people think there is some other realm beyond and the supernatural. I am not denying the perceptions but rather the interpretation of them as being beyond the natural

 

So what? All feelings can be reduced to an area of the brain. That doesn't mean that there isn't an outside force creating these feelings. Which I would call natural rather than supernatural; we are one with the universe which is why we have "religious" experiences of being one with the universe. It's all well and good to observe what happens in the brain when you have these experiences, but it's asinine to suggest that the cause and the effect exist in the brain alone. That's like saying, for instance, when a person smells a flower, because it activates a certain part of the brain, that the flower is useless. Surely you could stimulate that area to produce a similar effect -- that doesn't mean that the flower doesn't exist.

 

That doesn't mean that the Easter Bunny isn't the outside force creating these feelings. But, it's just that there isn't the slightest bit of reason we shouldn't dismiss this as "wishful thinking" until evidence is provided in some way to make the "outside force" the most reasonable assessment.

I agree. If there IS an "outside force", it would have to be natural. My argument is geared toward a "supernatural outside force".

 

We (read as: some of us) percieve a supernatural realm's existance. We should study ourselves to find out IF this is the case, I think.

 

Hikaru, tell me more about this "perception" of the "supernatural".

Elaborate on how you "perceive" the "supernatural".

What criteria do you use to determine the "supernatural"?

Just curious.

 

A supernatural perception is one that does not coincide with natural rules.

For example ... during meditation or under the influence of a psychoactive, when a person feels like they've lost their ego, or like their body has stretched out or they've merged with some other entity or thing, or they've lost their position in 3D space, these might be considered supernatural perceptions, as the perceptions are so distorted that they aren't very reminiscent of a natural world which we are used to anymore.

Supernatural meaning "not natural" or more accurately, "beyond natural." I'm certain that a person who has just taken a healthy dose of DMT or Salvia is very likely to have an experience of overwhelming magnitude that will seem very real to them, and yet will be unlike anything ever experienced in the world so far.

 

Ah...ok, you suggest that the perception itself is described as "supernatural" (a term describing the feeling) rather than the actual existence of a "supernatural" realm (with gods, fairies, and trolls). It's all in the mind, ok.

Gotcha.

 

Which is why my prolonged altered perception is no longer considered a positive thing, as it does not have the optmistic attributes that would result from a Religious/Spiritual experience specifically or SOMETHING Progressive generally.

 

have you looked at carl jungs theorys(Im gessing you have since you have a psycology degree) and the theroys of John C Lilly?

the collective unconsies shapes the genral world veiw of the human race that is why things look smell taste ect the same to all pepole. Then mabye there are other ones we can raise our awarness to and see a whole new world with beings we never knew existed but exist on some other level with their own collective unconise. Granted you would have to to have taken a lot of halltuonalgentics(LSD,Shrooms ect), while meditating while in a sensory depthvation tank, and have the buddhist verson of enlightement and mabye that still would not turly transend.

This is all a big "What if" but think about

 

Feelings of euphoria or spiritual ecstasy may very well have origins in the brain but that may not negate the experience's validity since it entails subjectivity. It is quite another matter to actually see "other worldly things," like ghosts, spirits, angels or demons. I've had at least three ghost / spirit encounters where I was fully cognizant and sober; the feelings I felt were real and repeatable. Most of the other ghost or spirit encounters were of the "one shot" types.

Saying that it is 'all in the mind' may be just a cop-out to dismiss it; but those who have had life altering experiences will just say, "Of course they are," and walk away giggling at your naivete.

 

It might help to think of it as different states of delusion. Everyday life where the externality of relations is believed is one. This is the life of the ego and the mechanistic view of the world. Another is the realm of the archetype, myths and gods. Then there is the place where all that is seem as illusion. If life is a dream and you are the dreamer then you can interpret in many ways. I prefer to live in the one that I have now but if flying saucers and hanging out with the dead is your thing, then by all means, go for it. I don't know what you learn from it but maybe that in itself is the lesson that is needed. It is all psycholgical. You don't need isolation tanks. I don't think there are outside powers or things controlling us. The occultists and supernaturalists like to view things as such but it is probably just a desire to assert their own immortality

 

Art

Yes 'shapes'.. not 'defines'

Occam

 

yes agree

it differs form person to eprson because every one is differnt

 

WhisperingWoods,

First I'd like to comment that your username, to me, is beautiful; it speaks of subtlety and of those events for which we have indications, of which we know part, but for which we clearly do not know the entire story. To use an analogy, "just as a lake can be viewed as the source of a river it may be the case that we are not measuring, or do not know of, the rainfall and snowfall; and clearly the lake has a source" This is to say that the measurement of brain states associated with other phenomena that includes anecdotally acquired information referred to in the article that you have posted may very well be only part of the 'picture' in terms of assessing the cause and significance of human states of consciousness; in particular 'spiritual' experience. I do not have the time right now to go into detail, I will do so in a later post since this is a very complex subject; but I will say that this situation does not require an "'overall' conclusion," we can hypothesize and test these hypotheses but we should be very cautious about making conclusions. However, briefly, a few of many questions and examples; It is reasonably arguable that the subjects examined, and the experiments performed, thus far in the studies sited in the article that you have posted represent only a very small range of the "types" of purported "'spiritual' experiences" that are known to exist and thus, taken as a whole, is not an adeqautely represenative sampling in order make 'sweeping' conclusions with; and, of course, we should note that basis for these afore mentioned "types" distinctions are based in analysis of anecdotally acquired information. Also, there is quite a bit of ongoing research into the human nervous system's electromagnetic interaction with the environment; the single facts that we measure 'local' electromagnetic and electrochemical activity in the human brain does not discount the possibility of more 'distant' electromagnetic interaction, and other environmental interaction, with the human brain, and nervous system in general, including long-term rhythm entrainments. As another question, in general, what is the subatomic nature of consciousness, if any, and what interface, if any, does this have in terms of information transfer between the greater environment and the human nervous system; and what is the significance of any such transfer ? Also, a large number of very significant known questions remain about the human brain's ability to analyze information recieved by "conventional" means, i.e. by the "five senses"; how might some of these possible capabilities impact insight and what we refer to as 'spiritual experience?' These are some of the many questions that we know of. In general we should careful about making conclusions about anothers experience, especially where it is not required. And, as mentioned before, we should be very careful about the act of concluding where conclusion in not required.

P/L,

David


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"From this alone, I conclude that the supernatural feelings are generated by the brain (whether this good or bad), not some outside force."

Good Arguement! One real good question is yeah so, you can do whatever you want with your mind, But will it really help you. You know, sure think outside the box to figure things out, but if your not sane enough to use these thoguhts. then it seems like , its just another vanity.

But yeah, the buddhist's ask the question is existence mental or physical. Cause if existence is physical than anger, lust, ande fear cannot exist. cause it just cant be seen, touched, or smelt, just non-phyiscial. It has no grounds to be initiated upon, no logic, no notihing, just the first thought that pops into head. they can be trancsended though, giving it a permenmant state of imperminance or potential non-existence. So I say if you cant see it, you cant say it.

 

I will say though that realizing your existence wihin this wickid wild existince is not just thought. It exists, its concrete you know. Theres no denying it, and its bueaty/