Beware the Fascist-Liberal Hardline

Okay then,how would that look,pan out ? Lets say we all meet up & both the Right & Left among us focus just upon what we CAN agree upon. We look at the state of the world , the prime lending catastrophy,the Banking crisis,Global arms dealing,the behavior of Global Corporations,ie the Big stuff. We agree that its all got outa hand & that neither of our sides support whats allowed to happen in our name?

Then we look at the lower end of the economic scale. That the kids of Right or Left wingers struggle to afford Uni,then can't get a job,nor can they find a mortgage lender, the person who needs some help to get themselves off welfare by starting up theirown business,smaller firms struggling to stay afloat trying not to lay of their workers & getting zipp from the banks.

My guess is that we'd agree that the multi national corps,the banks ect are no friends of ours & need stricter international control ,for everyones including their sakes. That we'd agree that the state,in these difficult times, needs to step in to help its people educate & build for a better tomorrow and to underwrite existing jobs at risk-for the duration of the crisis-all of which means taxing those who can afford it.

As you know ,I'm of the left so there may be bias here,also I'm a Godless Englishman,but given that how would (any of) you see the coversation going ?

 

Our coversation[sic] is meaningless, and has little, if any effect at all on those who govern us.

As those who are governed, we only begin to exert our power over those who will/would govern us when we begin to speak with a single voice.

In my opinion, a right of center opinion, the U.S. economy, job situation, and budget deficit, are the primary issues which need attention, with polls showing the same regardless of gender, age, or party ID, and progress on those issues would likely go a long way toward solving, improving, or at least providing the means by which many of the lessor issues might begin to be solved, or improved. Party line voting blocs are more easily produced when based on minor issues, which relate to race, gender, age, etc.

 

Is it all right or left wing now?...It's impossible to tell...What are the little miscreants up to?...

 

I'm not disagreeing with anything you say here. Maybe I didnt express my aim clearly enough in last post. A lot of posters ,Left & Rights or otherwise, are fed up with the L vs R banter that goes on between the usual suspects. Its become so routine that ,regardless of subject, it reads almost like a script,not a discussion but an exchange of immovable statements.

What I was proposing was an experiment.maybe its own thread,to try to break that down & get a discussion going with the aim of finding common ground of even general agreement. Ordinary people,be they Right or Left in opinion, share the same experiences & frustrations & worries. Some common ground is already there.

My notion is that were we to meet face to face our discussions would not roll out the way they have become accustom to in these threads. This environment is artificial.We'd be more inclined to listen,empathise & learn from each other for starters ! What I propose is experimenting to try to find a way round that & open the dialogue so that it becomes more 'real'.

Lets leave it there for you (and others) to consider & add any views or insights.

 

Hitler overthrew the liberal democratic party of Germany in 1933. He was a right wing fascist fascist, and so was his buddy Mussolini who was proud to call is government right wing fascist.

[SIZE=+4]Fourteen Defining
Characteristics Of Fascism
[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]By Dr. Lawrence Britt
Source Free Inquiry.co
5-28-3

[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.[/SIZE] This is the definition of the GOP, NOT LIBERALS. Again you double down on your right wing ignorance.

 

I think this is a really good idea. It may help moving a discussion forward if say we just left the labels at the door instead of saying, "You conservatives" or "You liberals". Of course labels have their function, but it does seem that over the last couple of months they've been more of a distraction on these forums rather than being of any use; particularly when they are used to discredit or silence a point of view simply because they can be called 'right' or 'left'. How many times do we have to endure mass generalizations of one side or the other before we realize that such statements are useless and counterproductive?

Furthermore, I think the idea of having a discussion centered on our common ground might prove more valuable too - as you said, we all share the same worries.

Summerhill, perhaps you'd like to start a thread in this regard?

 

RJ, I just looked up the guy who wrote that 14 characteristics of fascism thing you posted. Here's what I found about him with a Google search.

This is from http://civilliberty.about.com/b/2007/09/10/one-nation-underrated.htm - I'm quoting the article directly here.

"First of all, there is no "Dr. Lawrence Britt." The author of the 14-point fascism inventory, Laurence Britt, is a former corporate executive who wrote and published a dystopian novel about right-wing extremism, titled June 2004, during the height of the Lewinsky scandal. That is, to the best of my knowledge, his only published volume.

"In the real June 2004, he achieved some level of fame with an op-ed published in the humanist magazine Free Inquiry. This op-ed was forwarded around from inbox to inbox, and readers eventually began putting a "Dr." in front of his name and referring to him as a political scientist who had compiled the fascism inventory independently of the Bush administration."

So, you're circulating chainmail from over a decade ago by an obscure sci-fi novelist/businessman who someone out there credited as an expert with a doctorate in political science, which he was not.

But then again, finding that out would require about three minutes of research, and those three minutes would be much better spent insulting people for disagreeing with you.

That's not to say what Britt is saying doesn't have merit. It's just not a definition of fascism. It's a presumably leftist thinking individual describing what he sees as the worst parts of the right wing and labeling it as fascism, because that sort of dishonesty is an argument tactic that a lot of people on the left unfortunately use.

Also, keep calling me ignorant. Tossing insults at people makes your arguments much more effective.

 

Thanks McFuddy,I may well do so but first would like to hear others views too to wiegh the ideas feasibility & maybe widen its 'ownership'. If members want to comment but fear going off topic here they're welcome to mail me.

 

I'm in and willing to moderate my sarcasm of the right.

 

I for one will never moderate exposing leftist hypocracy.

 

Wow, you're tripling down on your right wing justifications, aren't you. To try to say that those fourteen points are not the definition of fascism can be nothing short of IGNORANT. Here's the first three fascist countries....

Italy (1922–1943)

Main article: Italian Fascism
The first fascist country, it was ruled by Benito Mussolini (Il Duce) until he was dismissed and arrested on 25 July 1943. Mussolini was then rescued from prison by German Nazi troops, and set up a short lived puppet state named "Repubblica di Salò" in northern Italy under the protection of the German army.
Germany (1933–1945)

Main article: Nazism
The Nazi Party came to power in Germany as a minority party when its leader, Adolf Hitler, was named chancellor following the elections of 1933. Hitler moved swiftly to consolidate power, first through passage of the Enabling Act of 1933; after the death of President Paul von Hindenburg in 1934, the entire power of the German state was concentrated in Hitler's hands.
The Nazis cowed the populace through thuggery and intimidation, including outright persecution of the country's Jewish citizenry, ending in the Holocaust. One of Hitler's cornerstone policies was known as Lebensraum, which served as the rationale for Germany's expansionist foreign policy and ultimately led to the Second World War.
Japan (1931–1945)

Main articles: Japanese nationalism and Statism in Shōwa Japan
Right-wing elements in Japan, including industrialists, military officers, and the nobility, had long opposed democracy as an anathema to national unity. Military cliques began to dominate the national government starting in the 1930s. A major militarist nationalist movement in Japan from the 1920s to the 1930s was the Imperial Way Faction "Kodoha" of which future wartime Prime Minister Hideki Tōjō was a part. In 1936, Japan and Germany signed the Anti-Comintern Pact, aimed at countering the Soviet Union and Communist International. In 1940, Prime Minister Fumimaro Konoye established the Imperial Rule Assistance Association, or Taisei Yokusankai, to consolidate all political parties under a single umbrella group. That same year, Japan joined Germany and Italy in the Tripartite Pact.


Now I challenge you to come up with just one LIBERAL FASCIST COUNTRY, just one.

 

What makes you think the author of those points is in any way qualified to define what fascism is? Is it simply because you agree with the points?

 

Hmm,as Mr Blue, with whom you had an exchange of views on the Egyptian Constitutional Thread put it,"you are without doubt a cock", I am inclined to agree with him !

 

You're not going to find a liberal fascist country. But you can find left wing fascist countries, as in left wing totalitarian countries. By definition, liberal is close to the opposite of fascist. But you can absolutely be a left wing fascist. The former Soviet Union, China, North Korea, Vietnam, Cuba, and various other eastern European, Asian, central and south American communist states, and several (but not all) of the socialist ones as well. They're totalitarian, fascist nations.

Now, how about you explain why you're circulating a decade plus old piece of chanmail written by a failed novelist and passing it of as a scholarly paper by an expert in the field? Did you not do a thirty second google search on the author of that 14 point whatever-the-fuck you posted, or are you knowingly trying to pass it off as being written by an expert in the field? Laziness or dishonesty. Which is it?

While you're at it, explain to me how I'm trying to justify any sort of right wing ideology. I'm not. I'm just disagreeing with you. Does that make me a bible thumping Jesus freak conservative? Because I'm as far from that as you can get - which is something I've been trying to get through to you for a while, but since I'm not agreeing with you completely on every issue, I have to be a hardline right wing, racist, bible thumping homophobe with a Charlie Chaplin mustache and a swastika tattooed on my neck or something.

 

The title of this thread is, "Beware of the fascist-liberal hardline". Now you say you can't find a fascist liberal country. So you have lost the debate. You're just disagreeing like the stupid right wing republicans do, just for the sake of being obstinate.
Here's the Wikipedia definition of FASCIST although like typical right wingers, you'll probably not except Wikipedia as valid.

Fascism /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism[1][2] that came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. Fascists seek to unify their nation through a totalitarian state that promotes the mass mobilization of the national community,[3][4] relying on a vanguard party to initiate a revolution to organize the nation on fascist principles.[5] Hostile to liberal democracy, socialism, and communism, fascist movements share certain common features, including the veneration of the state, a devotion to a strong leader, and an emphasis on ultranationalism and militarism. Fascism views political violence, war, and imperialism as a means to achieve national rejuvenation[3][6][7][8] and asserts that stronger nations have the right to obtain land and resources by displacing weaker nations.[9]
Fascist ideology consistently invokes the primacy of the state. Leaders such as Benito Mussolini in Italy and Adolf Hitler in Germany embodied the state and claimed indisputable power. Fascism borrowed theories and terminology from socialism but applied them to what it saw as the more significant conflict between nations and races rather than to class conflict, and focused on ending the divisions between classes within the nation.[10] It advocates a mixed economy, with the principal goal of achieving autarky to secure national self-sufficiency and independence through protectionist and interventionist economic policies.[11] Fascism supports what is sometimes called a Third Position between capitalism and Marxist socialism.[12] Fascist movements emphasize a belligerent, virulent form of nationalism (chauvinism) and a distrust of foreigners (xenophobia), the latter closely linked to the ethnocentrism of many fascist movements. The typical fascist state also embraced militarism, a belief in the rigors and virtues of military life as an individual and national ideal, meaning much of public life was organized along military lines and an emphasis put on uniforms, parades, and monumental architecture.
Influenced by national syndicalism, the first fascist movements emerged in Italy around World War I, combining elements of left-wing politics with more typically right-wing positions, in opposition to communism, socialism, liberal democracy and, in some cases, traditional right-wing conservatism. Although fascism is usually placed on the far right on the traditional left-right spectrum, fascists themselves and some commentators have argued that the description is inadequate.[13][14] Following the Second World War, few parties openly describe themselves as fascist and the term is more usually used pejoratively by political opponents. The term neo-fascist or post-fascist is sometimes applied more formally to describe parties of the far right with ideological similarities to, or roots in, 20th century fascist movements respectively.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

Your efforts to blur the lines between fascism and socialism are typical right wing propaganda.

 

When I went to college, my Political Science prof said, "All you need to know about America is this: The Democrats don't want anyone to make money, and the Republicans don't want anyone to have fun."

 

The definition of Fascism is the merger of a dictatorial government with big business, leaving the people out of the decision-making process. That's basically what the conservative right wing scumbags want for us.

 

There are no Liberal Fascist countries, just like there are no Islamo-fascist countries. Both are a creation of Republican talk radio hosts.

 

Haha

 

Looking at the last ten years, I'd say the repubs don't want anyone to have money either--except for themselves . ALL of it. Which fits right in when you consider it's a bitch to have fun if you're homeless, jobless and moneyless.