Article on Women's Rights

Discussion in 'Islam' started by xdianax, Jan 1, 2005.

  1. xdianax

    xdianax Member

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    I was just browsing this Islamic site that Cab provided in his profile. There were many interesting articles, and I came across one that was titled, "Respect for our Daughters." Reading it uplifted me, because the author openly stated that many cultures do treat women as a lower-class, including Islamic cultures, but that Allah mentions women and men with equality in the Qur'an. Also, the author tried to help give the reader methods to reach out to their daughters and let them know that their opinion is valued.

    Here is the website if anyone is interested in reading the article:

    :) In love,

  2. jonny2mad

    jonny2mad Senior Member

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    This a debate on islam and the liberation of women, its very interesting and your not just getting things from one side. you have
    two muslims activists one a women convert v one ex muslim atheist and a christian writer on islam.

    its very good reading i wish they had it as a mp3, but well worth looking at

    Does Islam have the keys within itself to liberate women within Muslim social structures? To discuss this issue with us today, Frontpage Symposium has assembled a distinguished panel. On the side of the possibility of a feminist Islam, joining us today are:

    Mohamed El-Mallah, a board member of Al-Ittihad Mosque in Vista, former board member of Islamic Center of San Diego, and an associate member of the Muslim American Society. A native of Egypt who migrated to the U.S. seven years ago, he is an activist in the Muslim Community of San Diego who has given many series of presentations on Islamic History,


    Julia Roach, a UCSD student currently pursuing a bachelor's in literatures of the world, specializing in gender issues and women in literature. She converted to Islam in 2003.

    On the side of Islam being mutually exclusive with women’s rights, we are joined by:

    Ali Sina, the founder of Faith Freedom International (, a movement of ex-Muslims created to provide support for those who want to leave Islam and give factual information about Islam for others,


    Robert Spencer, the director of Jihad Watch and the author of Onward Muslim Soldiers: How Jihad Still Threatens America and the West (Regnery Publishing), and Islam Unveiled: Disturbing Questions About the World’s Fastest Growing Faith (Encounter Books).
  3. cabdirazzaq

    cabdirazzaq Member

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    You seem to have such high values toward women johnny, It seems as if you are fighting for their cause, but if I may ask you a simple question...

    Then why do you admonish muslims while you never mention the way the bible view women? I can only find 2 answers for such a question, a) you think islam view women more oppressivly or b) you are raciast that hates every thing islamic. I'm not writing this to start making christians angry, you gave us link were two people compared their views and I'm comparing two religions instead:

    If we would start at the creation story, the bible accuses Eve for having tempted her husband to commit sin and to eat from the tree while the quran blames them both equally except for chapter Taha(20) where Adam(peace be upon him) alone is mentioned.

    Then the Lord God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate." To the woman he (God) said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."Genesis 3:6-17

    "Did I not forbid you that tree, and tell you that Satan was an avowed enemy to you?" "They said: "Our Lord! We have wronged our own souls: if You do not forgive us and do not bestow upon us Your Mercy, we shall certainly be lost" Quran 7:19-23

    These verses alone speak about the view of women in the bible:
    I find more bitter than death the woman who is a snare, whose heart is a trap and whose hands are chains. The man who pleases God will escape her, but the sinner she will ensnare." "Look," says the Teacher, "this is what I have discovered: "Adding one thing to another to discover the scheme of things-while I was still searching but not finding- I found one upright man among a thousand, but not one upright woman among them all." Ecclesiastes 7:26-28

    "...if a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days...but if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks..." Leviticus 12:2-5

    Women are forbidden to inheritance at all from a biblical view, sense she is viewed as property to her husband or her father there would be no room for discussing inheritance.
    "Say to the Israelites, 'If a man dies and leaves no son, turn his inheritance over to his daughter...'" Numbers 27:8

    "How can a woman have anything; whatever is hers belongs to her husband? What is his is his and what is hers is also his...... Her earnings and what she may find in the streets are also his. The household articles, even the crumbs of bread on the table, are his. Should she invite a guest to her house and feed him, she would be stealing from her husband..." (Talmud San. 71a, Git. 62a)

    "And covet not the thing in which Allah has made some of you excel others. Unto men a fortune from that which they have earned, and unto women a fortune from that which they have earned. (Envy not
    one another) but ask Allah of His bounty. Verily! Allah is Knower of all things."[Quran An Nisaa(Women)]

    From what is left by parents and those nearest related there is a share for men and a share for women, whether the property be small or large, -a determinate share." Quran 4:7

    The reason for the son to inherit more than the daughter is just. It is he who must feed the family after the death of the father and he would also need money for the dowry. The money would 'come back' to the daughter when she is going to marry anyhow and when she is married she is not obligated to work for her family even though she may at a permissible job, this is not oppression, rather luxury. The man does not always inherit more than the women, it is connected to what kind of relation they had to the deceased.

    The so often discussed veil, paul speaks about honor and disgrace while the quran speaks about modesty:

    "Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head...If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head" 1 Corrinthians 11:3-6

    O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their Jalabib over their bodies. That will be better that they should be known so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful Quran 33:59

    Sense the subject here was daughters, this is what the bible has to say about them:

    The birth of a daughter is a loss" (Ecclesiasticus 22:3).

    "Your daughter is headstrong? Keep a sharp look-out that she does not make you the laughing stock of your enemies, the talk of the town, the object of common gossip, and put you to public shame" (Ecclesiasticus 42:11).

    "Keep a headstrong daughter under firm control, or she will abuse any indulgence she receives. Keep a strict watch on her shameless eye, do not be surprised if she disgraces you" (Ecclesiasticus 26:10-11).

    The prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) said:
    "If anyone has a female child, and does not bury her alive, or slight her, or prefer his male children over her, Allah will bring him into Paradise."
    (Narrated by Abu-Dawood)

    "He who is involved in bringing up daughters, and accords benevolent treatment towards them, they will be protection for him against Hell-Fire" (Bukhari and Muslim).

    "Whoever maintains two girls till they attain maturity, he and I will come on the Resurrection Day like this; and he joined his fingers" (Muslim).

    According to the bible, the menstruating women is very impure:

    "When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening. Anything she lies on during her period will be unclean, and anything she sits on will be unclean. Whoever touches her bed must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. Whoever touches anything she sits on must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. Whether it is the bed or anything she was sitting on, when anyone touches it, he will be unclean till evening" (Lev. 15:19-23).

    I would drink when I was menstruating, then I would hand it (the vessel) to the Apostle (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) and he would put his mouth where mine had been, and drink, and I would eat flesh from a bone when I was menstruating, then hand it over to the Apostle (peace_be_upon_him) and he would put his mouth where mine had been. [Muslim Book 3, Number 0590]

    While the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) was in the mosque, he said: O Aisha get me that garment. She said: I am menstruating. Upon this he remarked: Your menstruation is not in your hand, and she, therefore, got him that.[Muslim Book 3, Number 0581: ]

    The education of women in the bible:

    "As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church." (I Corinthians 14:34-35)

    11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 1 Timothy 2:11-15.

    "Allah has heard and accepted the statement of the woman who pleads with you (the Prophet) concerning her husband and carries her complaint to Allah, and Allah hears the arguments between both of you for Allah hears and sees all things...." (58:1).

    The prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) said: "Seeking knowledge is mandatory for every believer." [Ibn Majah]. This means both female and male. His wife was among the great scholars, many of the followers of the sahaba use to come and learn from her.

    Another point which islam haters like you usually higlight is the fact that a muslim man may marry 4, this is a limitation as the bible states that Solomon(peace be upon him) had 700 wives and 300 concubines. Lets not forget that there exists a requirment for a man to be able to marry a second wife, such as money and him knowing that he can treat them equally. How funny is not our goverment, it prohibits the marrying 2 wives whle it allows adultery, is it better for him to go behind his wifes back or marry another while she knows of it? If she does not agree to him marrying another wife she can have this written in the marriage contract and thus it would become a sin for him to marry another wife.

    Marry women of your choice, two or three or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with them, then only one or one that your right hands possess. That will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice." (Qur'an 4:3)

    Another thing people bring up is forced marriages, this is an awfull practise that exists among muslims and christians arabs as well, they mix up tradition with religion even though our prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) said:

    "A woman without a husband (or divorced or a widow) must not be married until she is consulted, and a virgin must not be married until her permission is sought. They asked the Prophet of Allah (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him): How her (virgin's) consent can be solicited? He (the Holy Prophet) said: That she keeps silence

    O you who believe! You are not permitted to inherit women against their will, nor to prevent them from marriage in order to get part of (the dowry) what you have given them, unless they commit open Fahishah. And live with them honorably. If you dislike them, it may be that you dislike a thing and Allah brings through it a great deal of good.[4.19]

    Ibn Abbas said : "Before, the practice was that when a man dies, his male relatives used to have the right to do whatever they wanted with his wife. If one of them wants, he would marry her, give her in marriage, or prevent her from marriage, for they had more right to her than her own family. Thereafter, this Ayah was revealed about this practice,"

    Perhaps the verses that raise the greatest questions are these:

    7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maid-servant, she shall not go out as the men-servants do. 8 If she please not her master, who hath espoused her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed; to sell her unto a foreign people he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her. 9 And if he espouse her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters. [Exodus]

    You, johnny often speak about rape victims being punished in the islamic world, if this is happening its not correct according to the muslim religion but what about this verse, I wonder whom is being punished here?:

    If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives"
    Deuteronomy 22:28-30

    What about the long discussions christians priests have had through out the centuries, they have gathered to numerous meetings like the one held in France during the 16 century were they gathered in order to find out if women posses as a soul or not, if she may attain heaven or not. They concluded that she does have a soul but she is created to serve the man, acually the famous Martin Luther said:
    " If they become tired or even die, that doesn't matter. Let them die in childbirth, that's why they are there"

    No, he was wrong because women were not created only to deliever offspring or to serve their husbands but the same reason that man was created, to worship Allah(may he be exalted), is it not just that she should receive the rewards as the man and the sin for what she does just as the man?

    And whoever does righteous good deeds, male or female, and is a believer, such will enter Paradise and not the least injustice, even to the size of a Naqir, will be done to them.)
    Qur'an, Al-Nissa(4):124.

    "And the believers, men and women, are protecting friends one of another; they enjoin the right and forbid the wrong, and they establish worship and they pay the poor-due, and they obey Allah and His messenger. As for these, Allah will have mercy on them. Lo! Allah is Mighty, Wise."
    Qur'an, Al-Tauba(9):71

    "Whosoever does right, whether male or female, and is a believer, him verily We shall quicken with good life, and We shall pay them a recompense in proportion to the best of what they used to do."
    Qur'an, Al-Nahil(16):97.

    "And of His signs is this: He created for you spouses from yourselves that you might find tranquillity in them, and He ordained between you love and mercy. Lo, herein indeed are signs for folk who reflect." The noble Qur'an, Al-Room(30):21

    "Whoso does an ill deed, he will be repaid the like thereof, while whoso does right, whether male or female, and is a believer, (all) such will enter the Garden, where they will be nourished without stint." The noble Qur'an, Al-Nahil(16):97

    "And they (women) have rights similar to those of men over them in a just manner" [Qur'an 2:228 ]

    The bible commands the killing of women and children at times of war?

    And the Lord said, "Go through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have you pity. SLAY UTTERLY OLD AND YOUNG, BOTH MAIDS AND LITTLE CHILDREN, AND WOMEN.[Ezek. 9:5]

    "A woman was found killed in one of the battles of the Prophet (salallaahu 'alayhee wa sallam), so the Prophet banned the killing of women and children." [Narrated by AlJama'ah (i.e. Bukhari, Muslim, Ibn Majah, At Tirmidhee) except for An Nasaa'ee, and Abu Dawood]

    Johnny, you have great hatred against the marriage of the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) with Aisha, do you then defend having sex with 3 year olds instead?

    "Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."[The bible Numbers]

    Said Rabbi Joseph, "Come and take note: A girl three years and one day old is betrothed by intercourse. And if a Levir has had intercourse with her, he has acquired her.[M.Nid. 5:4]. Sanhedrin 7/55B ..

    "A girl three years and one day old is betrothed by intercourse. "A girl three years old may be betrothed through an act of sexual intercourse," the words of R. Meir. And sages say, "Three years and one day old."....."

    My point is crystal clear, if you have such an hate against islam for you accusing it of treating women bad, shouldnt then you take this little war of yours to your own backyard and visit the church?

    Verily, the Muslims: men and women, the believers: men and women, the Qanit: men and the women, the men and women who are truthful, the men and the women who are patient, the Khashi`: men and the women, the men and the women who give Sadaqat, the men and the women who fast, the men and the women who guard their chastity and the men and the women who remember Allah much with their hearts and tongues, Allah has prepared for them forgiveness and a great reward.[Quran Ahzab]

    They (your wives) are your garment and you are a garment for them. (2:187)

    The Prophet of Islam (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) said, "Women are the twin halves of men."

    O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under Allah's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers...
  4. dasBenzin

    dasBenzin Member

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    Jonny wants to annoy any Muslim readers of his posts. He does not realize that no Muslims are offended by him at all.
    *Smile and Nod*
  5. jonny2mad

    jonny2mad Senior Member

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    cab very predictable.

    if someone points out that islam treats women badly, you say well christianity treats women badly too, and then call the person being critical of islam a racist.

    if Islam was a religion that came from god you would expect it to be perfect , you saying theres another imperfect religion just gives more evidence that people have been fooled in two religions .

    and as Ive said before half my family are chinese, ali sina is a iranian, ayaan hirshi ali is somalia I could go on ....being anti islam doesnt mean you dislike a certain race just that you dont like a certain religion

    cab if you ever see me around christians, Im a critic of christianity too, and Im rather a good critic as Ive read the bible something like 32-34 times .
    most atheist websites attack christianity more than they attack islam one I quite like as at least a 4-5 to 1 ratio of attacks on christianity compared to attacks on islam .
    There are far more sites attacking christianity compared to ones attacking islam,
    this may be starting to change, personally I hope it does because I think islam is more dangerous .

    "Jonny wants to annoy any Muslim readers of his posts" no I mainly want to inform non-muslims

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