All of a sudden I felt the need to type this...

Discussion in 'Japan' started by likeWOAHitsMia, Feb 24, 2008.

  1. likeWOAHitsMia

    likeWOAHitsMia Member

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    Ok so I'm a college student and my minor is Japanese. I'm extremely interested in Japanese culture and possibly spending 1 or 2 semesters at Hirosaki University before I graduate.Well I was doing some research on Japan as well as talking to the Japanese exchange students on campus and I have to say there are some things that are bothering me.

    First off there's this thing called "Uchi-Soto" (inside-outside) it's bascially an "us vs them" attitude that the Japanese as a whole have towards the whole world. So for example if an American or someone from another country came to visit Japan they would be though of as "Soto" and would be treated very kindly, given much flattery, etc. But if that foreigner decides to try and assimilate into Japan, like become a citizen or live there permanently then there's a major problem. For the Japanese it would be like "woah what r u doing? you're trying to be one of us? well u can't be one of us." This is called the "Gaijin Complex" (gaijin means outsider). Then of course there'd the younger generation that likes anything western and that thinks Americans are cool. For them it's like a fashion statement to have a foreign friend, it's also an opportunity for them to practice their english.

    I don't know that just really disturbs me because I just wish Japan would become more multi cultural like the U.S. I mean, they're getting better, but it would still be hard for a "gaijin" to get a place to live and good work there if they planned to live in Japan for some time. There's a sort of racism there. I'm not talking like in America, not open displays of dislike of another culture. No, it's more like when they're in your presence they're nice but when you're not around they gossip. I know not all Japanese are like that, but Japan prides itself on it's "Japaneseness" and collectiveness. Individuality isn't something they approve of. It's a western thing. So Japanese are more concerned with what others think of them and are more focused on doing what is expected of them to fit within a group. Just like us, they have stereotypes of Americans based on the media of course, and I guess that would contribute to their "Uchi-Soto" attitude. But what bothers me is the fact that it's not just Americans they have that attitude with. It's basically: there's the japan, and then there's the rest of the world. Therefore: "Uchi-Soto"

    I guess the hippy in me crinches at that idea. I just wish everyone could mix together and there not be this whole "our culture vs their culture" thing. sigh...am I making any sense? lol
     
  2. zippolite

    zippolite Member

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    weaboo lol
     
  3. RobynCB90

    RobynCB90 Member

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    You know, I emphasize. I don't understand the culture as well as you, but I can see how they would be that way. I don't want to fall into any prejudice judgments when I say this, but I can almost see many Japanese feeling this way. I had many Japanese students come to stay with family, but again, these were students, the ones who embrace this culture. I don't feel as if I can properly say anything, as I do not know many Japanese, but I do find it odd that they should feel this way.

    I am with you. I wish everyone, not only Japanese, could embrace other cultures in their own society. Not only does it allow for education and understanding for other cultures, but it allows everyone to realize that we are all the same species, no matter where we come from.
     
  4. polecat

    polecat Weerd

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    My older brother lives in Japan at the moment and he has echoed a lot of the things that you talked about.

    From what he said, and from what I've read from the books he left me, a non-Japanese will never assimilate into their culture. Japan has a deeply ingrained racism and powerful nationalism that is fairly unique in the world. Their culture and history has made it so.

    An example that comes to mind is the hubbub made in their media when a Chinese man was elected to some board of supervisor position in a local government. It was celebrated as a gain in cultural relations and integration and all that. What wasn't mentioned was that the "foreigner" had been born and lived his entire life in Japan. He even had 3 children attending school. That kind of mindset is just so bizarre to me as an American, since anyone born in my country is automatically a citizen and someone I look at with no prejudices.


    But then America is a country composed entirely of immigrants, while until 1945 Japan practiced complete isolationism and then extreme nationalism. Our history is a patchwork of individuals/nationalities, while their's is all the same; Japanese. The same thing goes for places like Europe too. The countries were constantly interacting and people were moving from place to place. Japan's attitudes are indeed changing, but all this change is suspect.

    My brother said that any foreigner is Japan is likely to be offered lots of free drinks. Because they like to see how much we can drink. Don't get me wrong, he likes it over there, but he maintains that he can never be treated as a true equal.
     
  5. LanSLIde

    LanSLIde Member

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    Pride and honor have played very massive roles in Japanese culture,
     
  6. fountains of nay

    fountains of nay Planet Nayhem!

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    You are making sense, but if you have never lived or even been to Japan who are you to judge? Making statements like "I wish Japan would be more multicultural like the US" could almost be considered as an act of ethnocentrism. Perhaps you should take a look at the anthropological and particularly the sociological background of Japan; It is completely understandable as to why the immigration in Japan is so tight. I live in the UK, a landmass which is pretty much in similar size to Japan but with a 2/3 less people on it and we already feel overcrowded and have social and cultural tensions between different groups and we are a multicultural nation. Now, if the UK is overcrowded, try putting 2/3 more people in it and we'd probably have chaos... It is understandable as to why Japan is tight on their immigration. They have a very small landmass and a large amount of people to support, protect and maintain before we even attempt to manage the foreign visitors etc.

    Also, is it really so terrible to want to be an indigenous nation? Don't misunderstand me, I am totally for multiculturalism, however I find that in places that are multicultural e.g Britain or the US, the government and the society tends to overcompensate when welcoming new cultures in and ends up losing everything about their own culture, E.G. The Nativity play has been banned from primary schools in Britain as it may offend non-Christians - I cannot even begin to define what is British culture these days.

    I had lived in Shin-Kemigawa, Chiba Prefecture and I never once had a problem with being a Gaijin... it's just how it is when you're a foreigner in another country. Being Gaijin only really becomes an issue if you make it an issue, but what do you expect? To walk in to another's country and to be totally accepted and perhaps treated differently or more special? The Japanese aren't usually rude, sure there may be times when they say things when you're not around, but that's not just a Japanese trait, many nations and cultures are guilty of talking behind one's back.

    Before you judge, go there and experience Japan for yourself, don't become an "armchair theorist"... experience should be fundamental in supporting such statements that you have previously made. :)

    Uchi-Soto is not just a Japanese trait. Humans have had the notion of "them and us" for a very long time. The most referrable in this instance is probably Herodotus, 5th Century BC, and his process of "othering" or (them vs us). It is actually only very recently (the last 100 years or so) that people such as anthropologists have been trying to bridge the gap between the "them and us" ideologies by using frameworks such as cultural relativism.

    Finally, best of luck with your studies, Japanese is a beautiful language and Japan, I found, is a very welcoming and honourable country to live in. It is, and always will be, my second home. And there are Japanese hippies out there, just get out to the raves and the music festivals and it's a completely different vibe from the main sway of Japanese society.
     
  7. Mountain Valley Wolf

    Mountain Valley Wolf Senior Member

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    Very well said Komaneko-chan, I mean, Fountains of Nay,

    I lived in Japan for nearly 15 years from about 1980 till the mid 90's. I speak read and write fluent Japanese (though it may be getting a little rusty). I worked very hard on my accent and could fool people who thought I was Japanese until they saw me. I worked for a Japanese stock brokerage firm, and was the first foreigner to pass the Japanese Securities brokerage exam that worked at a Japanese brokerage firm (There was one foreigner who passed the exam before me and he worked at Merrill Lynch).

    The uchi-soto mentality was never a bother to me. I almost always felt welcomed, and I felt that I was able to become a part of the culture, as much as I ever wanted to become. I wasn't completely accepted as a Japanese---but hey---that was how I retained my individuality. On the other hand, in many ways I was accepted into the culture.

    My first year in Japan was spent at Kansai University, and I lived in a homestay for the first semester in a working class neighborhood of Osaka----and I still feel that I am a part of the family I lived with. (I will never forget the time that I decided to leave Yamatane Securities and move to Tokyo, where I became an analyst for Shearson Lehman---they were so worried that I was going to go to Tokyo---saying that I would just become a robot in Tokyo---I was truly a son to them).

    But there were times when I broke rules, and got away with it (pretending I couldn't read) or just simply being a gaijin. When I worked at Yamatane Securities, the guys would work from 8:00 am until their boss said "Well... Shall we go?" which was anywhere from 7:30 to 10:00 pm. (Tokyo was more international in this regard, but...). I tried once or twice to stay late like the rest of them, I think I made it til 7:00----but my shift ended at 5:00----and except for that once or twice case, the most I stayed was maybe half an hour, before saying, 'osaki ni shitsurei shimasu' (I am going to commit the rudeness of leaving early). No one minded--because I was a foeigner----THANK GOD!!!

    Actually---being a foreigner who understood Japanese culture and spoke fluent Japanese opened a lot of doors for me. I gained all kinds of connections. I knew celebrities, CEO's, yakuza----I wrote a column for a newspaper. My second wife (a Filipina) became an actress and was gaining popularity---if we had stayed in Japan, she would have become famous. Her Filipina friend did instead...

    Then there is the fact that Japanese culture has nuances and subtleties that are hard to pick up by foreigners. There were many times over the years when I insulted and hurt people, without any intention to do so, nor understanding of how I did it until after I did. My Japanese had become very good---but that meant that people expected me to understand cultural aspects that I had not yet learned.

    On the other hand, if you are a guy----there will be Japanese girls who will except you and want to be that perfect gaijin's wife.

    The bigger problem was after leaving Japan----suddenly I wasn't the center of attraction any more-----and that sucked.

    You can't blame the Japanese for being so Japanese---when you go there everyone looks the same (JUST KIDDING!). Seriously though, in a big city like Osaka, there were times I would be surrounded by curious kids----because they had never seen a foreigner close up. There just isn't much opportunity for the to be exposed to foreign culture. (Granted there are more foreigners there today, but still...) And let's face it, America is not as multicultural as you may think---Americans tend to know very little of outside of America. A big complaint heard in many foreign countries, for example, is how CNN is almost always 95% American news, 5% foreign---the CNN programming overseas is the same as it is here. Compare it with BBC news broadcasts and see how multicultural that is.

    My first wife was Japanese. My second wife and stepkids are Filipino. My son is half-Filipino. I brought my first wife to America, when we were both students. My family today lives in America as well----in both cases, we have encountered cases of worse discrimination here than we ever encountered in Japan.

    If you go to japan, and focus on the uchi-soto mentality, you may miss some really good things about Japan---of course, gaijins have a lot of fun talking about all the bad things about Japan, but if they really hated, they woudn't all try so hard to stay there.
     
  8. tat

    tat Member

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    As I'm japanese, was born & raised in japan, I feel like that Japanese ppl
    tend to think that foreigners could not understand the japanese culture,
    since Japan has started from time immemorial (Kamiyo no mukashi), for 2669 years (since when Emperor Kanmu ascended), piling up such thick and complicated cultuer.....too thick and complicated to understand.
    So if you're just a visitor, they would be kind and nice to you,
    if you would like to be a japanese citizen, they may well think you should understand the thick and complicated this japanese manners and habbits/culture. If you're just a visitor, japanese people dont
    expect you have to mind japanese manners/habbits. You're the object
    whom we have to welcome.

    For example, in Japan, in the class, students must not take food/drink
    in there with them, but the exchange-students bring their coffee into the class, drinking it while the teacher speaking, most japanese students felt it's rude to the teacher. (nowaday, japansese university students do the same thing too :p)
    *I have not done that at Uni though, because I felt its rude to my teacher*
    Old days, japanese baseball players never chewed gum while the games.
    They felt its rude to "the Baseball". I'm saying kind of this...
    hope you guys get my point.
    When we eat Ramen/Udon/Soba (noodles), its ok to make sounds. On the other hand, noodle-slurping is rude outside Japan.(its ok in some coountries?)

    Aesthetics, philosophy, social concepts, religious concepts(most of religions have only one God, but in Japan there are Eight million Myriads Gods/Goddess, we call it "Yaoyorozu no Kami), folk religion, folk beliefs...
    to understand all of them is the hardest thing, so just come to feel and experience Japan and Japanese people. Its the easiest way for multiple-understanding.

    When we change the attitude, that means we destroy our cultuer in a sense.
     
  9. Mountain Valley Wolf

    Mountain Valley Wolf Senior Member

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    That's a good summation Tat. As long as I was a visitor---people meant well. Even if sometimes I felt I was insulted---for example, after living years in Osaka, I went to Tokyo, we went into a restaurant, and for the first time ever, I was given silverware, when everyone else was given chopsticks. This was after I had ordered in Japanese. When I asked for chopsticks, the waitress turned to my wife and asked if I knew how to use them.

    My pride was hurt and I got upset with her----but inside I knew---She was trying to be thoughtful, and she thought that she was being kind to not force a foreigner to eat with chopsticks.

    Overall though---I was always treated with politeness and people were interested in getting to know me.

    But when it came to people I knew, and those who had to deal with me in situations where I was not a visitor----that is when the subtle nuances and expectations of me turned into these situations sometimes:



    Oh---one other point-----you don't have to worry about trusting others as much as in other countries. Everytime I hopped into a taxi in the Philippines, I had to deal with the driver trying to rip me off. But that wasn't even the slightest worry in Japan.

    I left my attache case on a train twice in Japan---both times I was able to retrieve it at one of the next stations as someone would turn it in. I was so thankful that I too vowed that one day, if I ever see anything left on a train, I would be sure and turn it in.

    Then one day I was sitting on a train that had just left a station, and sure enough---someone had left an attache case on the train. At the next station I grabbed it and ran to the stationmaster. It was then that I noticed it was a laptop! ...In fact, a very nice laptop. I still use it today. Fortunately it had the chord and everything I need to run it. A lot of nice programs too...

    JUST KIDDING!!! I turned it in to the stationmaster, and I am sure it got back to its rightful owner.

    You do have to keep your guard up though at some times. There are still a few bad apples in Japan---and if you don't live in Japan you probably won't recognize what a bad neighborhood is.
     
  10. floyden

    floyden Member

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    ............................
     
  11. systemroot

    systemroot Member

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    Sounds to me like someone spent to much time watching Tokyo drift. Me and my wife spent 2 Weeks in Tokyo. Both of us clearly 2 white tourists. Never once did we feel we were being treated as an outsider. If you go by the rule of you are their to experiance them and not the other way around you should do well. But don't go there just trying to find anime stuff and getting upset because most people don't speak English.
     
  12. Beatbird

    Beatbird Member

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    Being a tourist in Japan and living in Japan as an expat are entirely different things.
     

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