A Question for Anyone who Believes in the Judeo-Christian God

And that includes Muslims, too. This is not an argument but a question. I'm departing from my typical style of argument, hoping instead to spark something of a Platonic dialogue. My reason for asking the question is this: I am an atheist. I do not believe in God. But as something of a thought experiment, I asked myself, "If there were a God, what would he be like? Nevermind what the major religions say! What would my own, personal version of God be like?" That's not the question I want to ask you, though. I'm sure you like the way your God is just fine. I concluded that God would have to be a reasonable-enough fellow to realise that no reasonable person can rightly believe that something exists when there is no evidence whatsoever to confirm the existence of that thing. I also decided that I didn't want a universalist God, who will let just anybody get into heaven. I wanted a fire and brimstone, floods and plagues, kill your first-born son God, who would punish the wicked and ignorant. So, I got to thinking, "Wouldn't it be funny if not only is there a God but that he lets only the atheists into heaven and throws everyone else into hell, as if not putting faith over reason is the only path to salvation?" That's a rhetorical question. The real question is this:

"I think we can all agree that to believe in God requires some degree of faith. Even if God's existence can be known through reason alone, it still requires at least some faith to believe in the One, True, insert-your-religion-here God. My question is, why is it that a God who requires a leap of faith from his followers is more praiseworthy than a God who can be known to us, fully or partially, by reason alone?"

Presumably the God of faith, who is your God, is the most praiseworthy being conceivable.

 

I have often thought that if I were wrong and there was a "God", that I would definitely make the "Heaven" team much quicker than many of the Christians I know. Because, "God" would have to be reasonable. BUT, it seems as if the Serpent in Eden was the reasonable one and "God" was the tyrant who wanted to keep Adam and Eve retarded and ignorant.

Knowledge brings pain, but it also brings growth. What better way to grow, to progress than to learn as much as you can. When I first realized that I was atheist I went through a horrible time psychologically because I just could NOT accept that there was no gloryland waiting for me when I killed over. However, I finally come to realize that if I have just one life that I need to live it. It made me have a deeper love for my family, my friends and myself. It helped me to see just how precious life really is.

Don't get me wrong, if I were given more of reason to truly believe in the afterlife and such, I'd jump at the opportunity. But, until that time I cannot lie to myself and force myself to acknowledge it. I don't have to have "concrete" evidence, mind you, just more reason to believe than reason not to.

Now, if "God" exists, and is remotely reasonable, "he" or "she" or "it" would find it both rational and compassionate to help me with this problem by supplying some legitimate evidence not just faith and feelings.

 

CS, your first mistake seems to be that you think God will conform to what you want out of him/her/it. It's like saying, "If there were such a thing as a crocodile, I wouldn't want one that eats poor innocent people, only one that eats wildibeasts and zebras." God, should one exist, would be independant of how we want it to be.

In the same vein, Libertine seems to assume that the God, if it existed, would be the Christian god (based on his above remarks about Christians and the Serpent in Eden). I really doubt God is that constrained; that is to say, I think any god that might exist will be bigger than what our holy scriptures say about it. I think the best way to begin thinking about if there is such a thing as a god is to get away from the Christian version, which is the only religion most atheists I've ever met always rail against. That's fine (I generally agree with them) but surely you all understand that that's not the only possible "form" of god that is worth considering, right? Why start your search about god's veracity from within the confines of just one religion?

Myself, I began looking across all religions, and found that they were all addressing the same thing. The mystics from all of the religions describe basically the same thing, though there is variation depending on their culture/religion of origin. Most of the differences are superficial (stuff like rituals, or moral codes). So, I've come to see "god" as something people all try to talk about but can't really touch with words. So while the experience is the same, when each person tries to describe it, he has to fall back on metaphors, generally ones particular to their culture or society.

Now, to answer your question about afterlife and faith vs. reason, I don't see god as some Top Judge, so it really doesn't matter. I am one of those people who see god as the universalist, a sort of cosmic unity, not an independent entity. All that exists is god manifested, we've all just forgotten. My opinion is that you need faith AND reason. Faith is your "heart" and reason is your mind. Why deny or ignore part of yourself in your life? Why try to cut out the "heart" and go by reason alone? You can deny it all you want but you do have an emotional side to you, which is independant of your reason. Furthermore, they aren't in opposition; faith vs reason should be faith and reason. The truth should not only work out logically, but will feel right and true.

 

i believe in god/dess(s/es) but have no defined or structured theology...no divine hierarchy or named dieties which i worship. however, the question, i feel, is flawed and i am unable to provide any type of real answer. you assume that god even needs to be praised or deserves to be praised. i know nothing of god or what he/she/it is like. perhaps it's some superhuman consciousness residing in the sky watching us and keep track of how good we are like a much more stern version of santa claus, but i think its much more likely to be something completely transcending human experience and language.

why trust reason? the mind is far from a perfect tool for understanding the universe, and what we perceive is not how things really exist, anyhow.

it would seem to me that if god were a thinking, living diety, that it would be rather childish to create a whole universe for the sole purpose of having the inhabitants of one lonely isolated world chanting praise to him for all eternity. but then i suppose i'm making assumptions about the nature of god like anyone else is.

i agree we cannot prove god exists because there isn't SCIENTIFIC evidence for it, but science is not the only way to understand the world, and there are many things science is as of yet unable to explain. similarly religious thinking cannot explain everything adequately and definitely has its flaws.

however, we also lack scientific evidence that god does NOT exist, and in fact i'd say the most compelling argument for the existence of some god-like force is the simple fact that there is a universe to inhabit in the first place, and that among a seemingly infinite number of uninhabitable worlds, our planet is green and moist and full of life.

have you ever taken a walk out at night and looked up at the stars and felt moved, felt that just maybe theres something more to the world than you can perceive with your eyes and ears and reason alone? that feeling seems to be universal, and nearly every culture, correctly or incorrectly, has interpreted it to signify the presence of the divine. this god theory has taken many different shapes and styles from country to country....yet even among polytheistic cultures, there is almost always a chief diety, a supreme builder and mover. the north americans of ages gone by have believe in many different dieties and mythical figures, most varying wildly from culture to culture. yet throughout almost ALL of them was the common belief in what has come to be known in english as the "great spirit," a formless chief god whom we cannot completely know. the lesser gods and figures pale in comparison to the great spirit....just as the gods and goddesses of greek myth paled next to the chief god zeuss, the angels and saints of christian lore pale in comparison to jehova, and so on.

every person and every people has had their own idea of what's out there, but people time and again come to the conclusion that there is SOMETHING or SOMEONE out there greater and more powerful than everything else....

it is easy and accurate to point out that we have no scientific method capable of locating, measuring, observing, or detecting god - IF god is actually a "person"

but what you and many others fail to take into consideration is that many religious teachings are admittedly metaphorical, cryptic, or pure myth. while many people (particularly fanatics such as right wing christians) take scriptures for face value and envision god as some bearded old spirit surrounded by cherubs with harps, its fair to say that it's quite probable that all scriptures are equally valuable and equally worthless. they all have the potential to give people hope and perpetuate tradition, manners, etc., but they also have the potential to be taken too literally or be used to justify misdeeds. if there is a god, god is seperate from any particular religion or culture. god is god, and all our manmade religions are merely methods people have devised in order to try to better understand and experience the divine.

so, after we've gotten through all that, ask yourself: who says god wants to be praised at all? what is the nature of god? what do i believe in, and how does it compare to what others think?

i think that even if you're an athiest or agnostic, you'll admit there are things you don't understand, things that you CANT understand, and things about the world around you that are so beautiful, so astounding, so improbable, that they leave you in awe about the universe. that, to me, is the signiture of the divine experience. whether you choose to see it as evidence for god, or whether you're too scientifically inclined to even entertain the idea that something which we cannot seem to define or pinpoint exists, it just doesnt matter. if god exists, god exists, and human beings are no closer to understanding him now that ever before. i dont think any real god would CARE whether we believe or not, but then of course no one could know that.

if there is a god, then so what? i think there probably is a god, in fact i believe there is. but that doesnt mean i can claim to know his will or anything about him at all. one main question people ask is: why did god create the earth?

some say to be worshipped.
some say to stage a test to determine who's going to heaven or to hell.

but what ever happened to art for arts sake? i think thats a more likely scenario.

but most importantly, what ever happened to being unable to understand the nature, let alone the will or intent (if he has either) of god? if there is a god, we cannot know at this point in our time. if there is a god we CERTAINLY cannot KNOW his will or intent in creation, and we DEFINITELY CANNOT by ANY means claim that we worship the one and only true god and anyone who disagrees is wrong and damned to hell.

the only sure thing is that none of us really do know. the leap of faith is not that at all: all it takes is awe and wonder. i think almost all of us have it, we just choose to deal with it differently.


take any course in art history and pay close attention to ancient art, almost all of which is religious in nature. always there is a struggle to humanize and relate to the divine. we try to bring god down to our level to understand him better instead of trying to raise ourself up to the impossible status of diety to understand him on his terms. we can't assume god has gender, or personality, or anything. god just IS and we have struggled for centuries to understand him. we write childrens stories about animals that behave like humans, personifying that which most people believe to be "below" us. you could envision this as similar to writing scripture, only we are giving human characteristics (such as a will and voice and intentions) to whatever it is that creates and sustains our universe...

you can give a dog human personality and it will still resemble a dog, but it would not be a real dog, it would not be how a real dogs behaves and thinks. similarly, you can give something "higher" than us human characteristics in scripture, but it's still just imperfect fairy stories because that is most likely not really how god acts and things.

humans are just so conceited that we think we're special and more important than all other animals, so many people assume god is just like us in form and thought and perception. if there is a god, he almost definitely is far beyond what we can describe in human terms.

 

"I think we can all agree that to believe in God requires some degree of faith. Even if God's existence can be known through reason alone, it still requires at least some faith to believe in the One, True, insert-your-religion-here God. My question is, why is it that a God who requires a leap of faith from his followers is more praiseworthy than a God who can be known to us, fully or partially, by reason alone?"

Nope we can't all agree on that, sorry man. There are people like me, the mystics, THE KNOWERS. I must first acknowledge that I am a beginner, thus will not be able to convince anybody of anything, I can perfom no amazing feats, nor be able read your mind to a T. I apologize that I haven't reach these advanced levels.

First of all the rational mind is a powerful tool and the rational mind can even be used to trasend itself... but still its take you to a point and no further. You can even conclude through reason that there is god. you may have reasoned and reasoned and reasoned, and concluded there must be something "beyond" its not random and meaningless and so on... But this rational and reasonable conclusion doesn't get you to KNOWING IT!

You come to a door on the door there is handwriting on it

"Magic Theature
For madmen only
Price of Admission your mind"

You must pay the price to enter the world of knowing god. The cosmic joke is that you are already in here with US, dancing this dance of conciousness, yet your mind is what keeps your seperate, it is what must be given up for you to get in and know you are already IN.

You can have your mind back, even we in the magic theature praise of its usefulness... but to get in you still must pay the price of admission and give it up.

You must go out of your mind!

In the magic theature, you can KNOW "god" mind you that name which I am giving one conciousness that is everything, beyond time and space, and in all of time and space. Vast intelligence, unbearable compassion... love! It is what all the religions are talking about. And a really great cosmic sense of humor, its laugh can be found in vibrations across the universe
Thus now that you know what I mean by god conceptualyl... and in essence it is beyond concepts even though these concepts accurarely describe it. This is not a paradox, it only seems like one to those with minds that haven't yet given them up.

You can know through mystical experience, that is going beyond your senses through your senses, into a realm of experience where you see and feel this presence, commune with it and so on... This can vary from just a really subtle experiene of it, to a very powerful, the world dissolves into white light experience... having had both types I can attest that this is a way of knowing god.

Give 100 people LSD and probably 20 will get into the magic theature. The rest will just see pretty colors, or get all freaked out, or go watch some TV show. LSD and psychedelics is the lazy man's way, because meditation takes years and year of patience... not that you can't have a spontaneous mystical experience without drugs, you certainly can! But this is the hippy forums, I got to mention it.

You can know god through Out of Body experiences, I can attest to one I've had, it helps my knowledge of this oneness.

You can know it through Near Death Experiences.

You can know it through mystical experiences in dreams, I have had many in which god communicated me, they were more vivid and real then anything I experience in the so called "real world"

You can know god through quantum physics, which proves that it is all one conciousness according to Amit Goswami... I know god through this way too. This is just about having the common sense to see that Goswami is right in his arguments, and we have no other choice but to conclude that there is one conciousness. Thus we can know in this way, through scientific inquiry. But still if you know solely through this way, you still standing at door to the magic theature, trying to break your way in while holding on to your mind... sorry dude, quantum mechanics or no quantum mechanics you got to give the mind up to get in.


Faith is a way of believing that there is a god, but you can't know through faith. Faith is useful though, I never put it down. Yet the faith that I speak of is having faith in your own mystical experience, not doubting your experience... That is a different kind of faith then you speak of. In this faith, it simply has to do with what happens after the mystical stuff, you get all bogged down in all the shit, people say that you just went crazy or that you have to confess yourself self to lord jesus christ and read the bible and all kinds of dogma scientific and religious, and you, the mystic, are left with only a memory of this incredible thing that you can't even explain through words and no real "here now" experience... well it takes a lot of faith to make it through those dry here now spots. Since I had dry spots at times faith got me through... but NOW, I'm at the point where Im always aware of the presence of god, and it varies from subtle to really powerful, but it is always there... so when I get upset... I get upset with god because that's the only thing there is in the universe, what else could I get upset with? what else could I blame? It's my only friend, it is what Im talking to right now... and on higher channels of reality you all agree me. I'm past the point of doubting it although I faced that earlier in my sadhana... quantum physics helped me because it laid to rest all my scientific thoughts about the situation that had before, years back causes doubts that bugged me... now thank god, all those doubts dont come up.

You can know god through experiencing a "miracle" of a realized being, and trusting when he/she tells you, that there is god. I've experience this with my guru Neem Karoli Baba.


The main reason you can know God, is YOU ARE GOD, everybody is, it's not a big deal man... You ego is a fucking joke, so is mine. Why take it so serious?

So it's just about remembering to be here now...

Really remembering that... oh yeah, this whole movie I've been living that seemed so real is just a dream. I am god, and I put myself in this form but this form is not me, it was about experiencing myself from a limited perspective, everywhere I look, I AM THAT! Wow! So sure this body is part of me, but I'm all of it!

Of course all this is realized not in all these thoughts or words, but an unexplainable experience of it...
STOP TALKING
STOP THINKING
JUST BE
AND YOU WILL KNOW WHAT I TALK AND THINK ABOUT!

Mystics that read this will be like, oh yeah I had one of those... because it is really like describing the taste of an orange, it is so hard to explain it to people that haven't eaten an orange.

To those that never had an orange; Its sucks to be your form, and I am your form man, your life is a travesty. Yes and this is the way we wanted to deep down as ONE...

Why you ask?

Because waking up wouldn't be FUN if we didn't fall asleep into incredible complex and vivid dreams of suffering.

And yes sometimes, people go there WHOLE LIVES without a mystical awareness... lost completely in the dream. but then comes death, and it is very rare to hold so tight onto your ego after death, but it does happens. case and point ghosts... hold on to thier egos after death... and end up lost and confused, in a nonlocal quantum dream, where certain mystics can see a mental neurochemical projectiong of these conciousnesses lost and clinging to a dead brain.

It's about fun, it's a play.

God is light, so lighten up!

I'll end this post with some beatles wisdom!

WITHIN YOU WITHOUT YOU



WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE SPACE BETWEEN US ALL,
AND THE PEOPLE
WHO HIDE THEMSELVES BEHIND A WALL OF ILLUSION.
NEVER GLIMPSE THE TRUTH;
THEN IT'S FAR TOO LATE, WHEN THEY PASS AWAY.

WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE LOVE WE ALL COULD SHARE,
WHEN WE FIND IT
TO TRY OUR BEST TO HOLD IT THERE WITH OUR LOVE,
WITH OUR LOVE WE COULD SAVE THE WORLD;
IF THEY ONLY KNEW.

TRY TO REALIZE IT'S ALL WITHIN YOURSELF;
NO ONE ELSE CAN MAKE YOU CHANGE.
AND TO SEE YOU'RE REALLY ONLY VERY SMALL,
AND LIFE FLOWS ON WITHIN YOU AND WITHOUT YOU.

WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE LOVE THAT'S GONE SO COLD,
AND THE PEOPLE
WHO GAIN THE WORLD AND LOSE THEIR SOUL,
THEY DON'T KNOW,
THEY CAN'T SEE.
ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

WHEN YOU'VE SEEN BEYOND YOURSELF,
THEN YOU MAY FIND PEACE OF MIND IS WAITING THERE.
AND THE TIME WILL COME WHEN YOU SEE WE'RE ALL ONE,
AND LIFE FLOWS ON WITHIN YOU AND WITHOUT YOU.

 

Ganja, the day I see you or one of your mystics do dick pushups (as on your myspace page), I'll be at least 75% convinced of your theories.

And TRIPPIN BTM, the whole thread was about the JUDEO-CHRISTIAN god.

 

I'm a little disappointed that no Jews, Christians, or Muslims have responded yet. So far, we have an atheist, a pagan, and whatever ganjaprince is. I suppose TrippinBTM is a Christian of sorts, but I'm under the impression that he's not a very orthodox one. Nevertheless, I'm glad that at least someone decided to respond. So, I'm going to respond to all of you anyway.


Libertine:

I agree wholeheartedly. I think that many people turn to religion because of a fear of death. But while it may be comforting, it's not reasonable. The only way we'll ever know exactly what happens when we die is to die, and even then we may not know the answer because we may not remain conscious. But the point is that it's silly to fear something that we don't know, and if we do end up kneeling in front of St. Peter one day, we might as well face our fate stoicly because it will be too late to do anything about it by then. However, I would ask him how God can punish someone for being true to a disposition (reason) that he endowed us with.

Trippin:

The introduction to my post was really just a little segway leading up to the question, designed to give you a better idea of my state of mind at the time I first conceived of that question. I'm not suggesting that such a God exists. In fact, I'm outright denying that he does.

Yes, I understand that. But the question is still very general and applies to anyone who believes in the Judeo-Christian God regardless of their faith or denomination. That's a substantial part of the world's population. My reason for not being more inclusive is the last condition of my question, that "Presumably the God of faith, who is your God, is the most praiseworthy being conceivable." Since that condition does not apply to polytheistic religions, I had to try to appeal to a monotheistic audience.

Now, since you've described yourself as a universalist and as someone who believes in the importance of both faith and reason, I have to ask you, how can either be terribly important if salvation for all is guarateed?

Nesta:

I do not assume that God needs to praised. If God is all he's cracked up to be, then he can get along just fine if nobody worshipped him. However, I am saying that God should be praised. Anything above the average is worthy of some praise: athletes, scientists, mathematicians, musicians. So, it appears to follow (and does indeed follow according to all major theologians) that the greatest possible being is worthy of the most praise.

That requires an explanation.

Is it right to praise God because he commands it, or does God command it because it is right? I warned you I turn this into a Platonic dialogue.

And what is it that religious thinking can explain?

This thread is not about the existence or non-existence of God, but I can't help myself from interjecting here. There is no scientific evidence that unicorns, Santa Claus, and the Easter Bunny don't exist. It's the absence of evidence confirming their existence that tells us they don't.

Granted, there are things that I don't know, but I see no reason to believe in something that I cannot, in principle, understand. If I can't understand it, then such a fact wouldn't even be intelligible and neither would the question. So, why should I believe in such facts when the question and answer appear as nonsense?

GanjaPrince:

So, then you do agree that some degree of faith is required to know God.

Oh, I see. It's not faith but rather mystical experience that allows one to know God. But surely such experiences are reserved only for the faithful?

I don't remember putting any conditions on a specific kind of faith. Even if we are talking about two completely different kinds of faith, at least humour me for the time being.

 

Faith is required to see at first. It's like opening your inner eye. If you keep it closed, you don't begin to understand (you cannot apply reason to understanding something you do not look at).

 

Okay, but that doesn't answer the question now, does it?

 

Why does it require a "leap" of faith to believe in God? What is a "leap" of faith versus 'moderate'(??) faith, and how does it apply here? I agree that belief in God does require some degree (quantitatively) of faith, but so does being an athiest. Also you are actually speaking of two kinds faiths. On the one hand, you're speaking of faith as beliefs in first principles or axioms (or so I think) which I guess in many cases can be called blind faith, while on the other hand you're speaking of a saving faith--the faith required by God--the nature of which is quite differerent. (I can't however speak for Jews or Muslims) God does not simply require that you believe He exist.

Why is this God who requires a saving faith more praiseworthy? Because He says He is. Now, I know this will sound strange to you, but remember that the Christian doesn't view himself as being autonomous.

 

Let any degree of faith in the slightest or more be a "leap of faith."

Please elaborate on that.

No, I'm only speaking of the latter type. I don't consider the former to be a kind of faith.

Obviously not. I never suggested anything of that kind.

Then I'll ask you the same question I asked Nesta, "Is it right to praise God because he commands it, or does God command it because it is right?"

 

Actually, though I was raised Catholic (and I guess it may have had some impact), I'm a pantheist with strong leanings towards Buddhism and Taoism and (philosophical) Hinduism. But of course I see truth in all religious systems. The fact that you thought I might be a Christian of sorts just further proves my point that all religions are alike when you get down to it.

And as far as how either faith or reason is important if salvation is guaranteed? I don't know. I don't know anything about the afterlife (I'm still alive!), so I can't say anything about it. If by salvation you mean someone else taking care of my sin (which would otherwise send me to hell or to further incarnations), well, I don't believe that. For me, Hell is a state of mind, as is heaven; and I don't know if reincarnation is true, and either way, I don't think someone else can ever "save" another. All there is for us to do is to realize our oneness with God (by transcending our ego, which no one can do for me). Anyways, I figure if we are all God, how could we ever be apart from God? Why would we need salvation?

I think I maybe went off on a tangent a bit there. Anyways, since we have both "faith aspects" and "reason aspects" to us in this life, there's no use trying to deny one or the other. It's like trying to ignore that you have a left leg...you can do it, but it makes walking pretty damn hard. It's not about finding salvation or whatever, it's just about being true to your nature. "Thought" is not the only way to know something.

Anyways, sorry I answered this thread, as I'm not the type of person you wanted a response from. I just wanted to have some input, as I think you're framing your questions in a rather narrow sense.

CS seems to feel that any amount of faith is a leap. A leap from what, you ask? Rationality.

 

I've never used faith to be atheist.

I just disbelieve what you claim.

 

Ok. So why then wouldn't belief in say, the reliability of sensory perception be considered faith, if that belief weren't grounded in a more ultimate source? Perhaps it would help here if you defined just what you mean my "faith."

I assume here that you mean my assertion about atheism relying on faith. In the first sense, atheism requires faith in certian axioms. In the second sense, it requires the faithfulness of its adheres. It may, for example require one to interpret reality through a strict adherence to empiricism.

Why isn't the former a type of faith?

Sorry, the above quote gave me the impression that you were speaking only of mere belief in God's existence. At any rate, your question becomes: "Why is it that a God who requires His followers to be faithful to Him more praiseworthy than a God who can be known to us fully or partially, by reason alone"? I don't think that this is what you meant since it doesn't make much sense to me, but if you did mean a saving faith, this is what you end up asking.

God commands it because it is right. "Rightness" is grounded in God's character. Neither is "rightness" grounded in a source external to God, nor can He arbitrarily decreed what is not right.

 

No, you can be like you, and have one spontaneous mystical experience, and the know God. You don't need faith at all... thats what happened to me

I was an athiest at age 17, I thought it was all just matter conciousness was just a side-effect. everything was random and meaningless and pointless... I hated religion I thought It was just a political tool and I distrusted all spirituality. I hated myself and hated the world... It seems that suicide was the only way out, because suffering sucks, so I would choose non existing, beause I believed at the time if my brain died, nothing would go on, thus no suffering.

Then I took LSD, that trip, I expereinced something beyond words, it shined everywhere, it was a real presence... I couldn't explain it, couldn't understand it, and it was only a temporary experience... But I knew that there was 'something else' and all the religions must be talking about it... So began my spiritual journey and quest for truth.

My life had purpose and meaning from then on.

No like I said, the unfaithful can have such experiences.

 

Boy that sounds familiar. I was a miserable wretch that hated everybody and wanted to kill myself when I was an atheist. I had nothing to live for. BUT NOW, after I found JEEEZUS, everything is all better. Only for you it was a chemical which made you have a chemical reaction by unlocking receptor sites in your brain.

Funny how all spiritualists say they were atheists and they were always miserable and on the brink of killing themselves.

Now, I am not saying that you are lying, Ganja. I am just merely observing the same story I've heard from Christians who were former "atheists" and even a Buddhist friend of mine whose "loss of spirituality" made him hate everyone, etc..etc.

I am (an) atheist. I do not hate ANYONE. I do not hate religion (by definition), but I do hate what it has done to the world. I am definitely not suicidal. I love living too much.

Not all atheists are suicidal, hateful assholes. I am neither suicidal nor full of hate. But, I can be an asshole...only nowhere NEAR the level of an evangelical nutball fundie.

 

I agree, but some athiests are, I certainly was.


I'm madly in love with you in a total plantonic way... You are one of the atheists I think has the best sense of humor on these forums. I don't hold it against you just because I see it different and you don't know you got the cosmic joke. On channel 3 you agree with me through, the BEING inside you is laughing with me at the cosmic joke. On channel one there is Libertine, a nice athiest with a funny sense of humor that isn't cosmic...

And it's not Jeeezus, its JEBUS! Sinner!



Jebus is everywhere, Jebus is the one conciousness!

 

Libertine, I guess I fall under your term "spiritualist" but though I used to be an atheist, I wasn't suicidal and didn't hate the world. I just came across some things that struck me as true. And it wasn't drug induced either, though I don't disregard such experiences.

 

Ganja, I'll bet that instead of the bible, your bible is BE HERE NOW by Ram Dass. You are obviously as "addicted" to Dr. Alpert as I am to Leary. Hell, you probably even took the brown paper section, cut out and put it all over your room!

And I have a certain affinity--a feeling of kinship, if you will, towards you as well. I think we could get along probably like Alpert and Leary. The arguments are part of the fun of it.

 

Wadda you read minds?

wait a second...


Hey, you saw my myspace, where I had cut out all the brown paper section and put it all over my room. As you can see all the brown blobs are sections from be here now

I call it my wall of love... I read passages from it daily to brainwash myself further... dance around and listen to beatles and moody blue songs, as well as other songs... then pray and do my meditation and mantra, and talk to my guru and get messages from realized beings who are my real friends... In other words, I'm out of my mind

But shit, Im a functing madman, I go to college gonna graduate soon and go on to grad school hopefully one day being a professor in religion, don't freak people out in public anymore, I have a job which I am slacking at currently... and so on...

So Im a tolerable madman, one you can't lock up because of the freedom of religion part of the constituion.

I've had some amazing trips in that room, It is designed in a psychedelic way... perfect room for tripping. That is technically illegal so I could get in trouble for it, but nobody gets busted in thier privacy of thier home for the most part, Im not worried about that... I'm not on drugs lately though, haven't done any drugs in a month, except caffeine. Mostly because I got busted for pot and got to pay offf an $800 dollar fine, judge when easy on me, only three drugs tests... so lately it's just meditation, just the here now

Joe cockers performance at woodstock of a little help from my friends, perfectly correlates synchonistically with my wall, as well as question by the moody blues, woodstock by CSNY, sympathy for the devil by the stones and so many others...

YES Ram Dass's book is my bible! And Im addicted to him and that book I've read it soooo many times at least hundreds, I even attended a spiritual retreat with him. he hung out with everybody, ate lunch with us, really nice dude... He so lived up to all my expectations and exceeded them... and then that hug I got from him, WOW I was crying for like 30 minutes in such life afterwards.


Yeah Tim and Ram Dass had a funny discussion on the movie Tim Leary's dead, it was some clip where they filmed the two together after all those years.

They did have a little falling out while tim was in jail, but made up. And became friends again.