A Peaceful non-violent society is inevitable

True Freedom, for every individual, is the ultimate goal of a minority of Citizens..

But, the reason we are a minority now, is because people have relied on Government, to allegedly "fix," all the problems they've caused; Many of those individuals, are still captivated in the idea, that the Government, (a small oligarch of individuals) is more morally justified than you.

In other words, they don't care that the Government has guns, kills innocent people, and, violates their own laws/restrictions, because they are stuck in the lie, that Government is "above the law"

Freedom is the answer. Instead of giving the Power to a group of Oligarchs to Control Us, we should establish a Free Society not based on the use of Force, and instead, based on voluntary cooperation. Which means, you can't hurt anyone or damage their property, but, you're free to do whatever you please with your own body.

 

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You wish for government – you just seem to want a form of government that would serve the wishes of wealth rather than the majority of people (little or no taxes, little or no regulations on the pursuit of profit or the exploitation of people and resources, little or no welfare and a government that’s main concern would be the protection of property and wealth)

You've ranted about how bad things are and riled about the police shooting dogs and little girls not being able to set up lemonade stalls but your solution - as has been show - would most likely make a bad situation worse.

*

Also as pointed out many times before the meaning of ‘freedom’ is open to interpretation.

Freedom from harm, freedom from exploitation, freedom from hardship, freedom from sickness.

There is also people’s freedom of choice this can change according to a person’s circumstance and in a monetary based system wealth can dictate those circumstances.

I mean if someone is born into power and wealth which gives them freedom from exploitation and hardship and another is born into poverty which opens them to exploitation and hardship, then there is in that society an inequality of freedom.

If a society is benefiting one over another (as your model would) where only a few receive vastly greater benefits than the majority then that society is benefiting the few and not the many? An oligarchy.

 

Protection of property, isn't a bad thing. Would you prefer anyone can steal your stuff, with no type of protection?


You don't even know what you're arguing for, and that's why I stopped answering you. You said, you're mad that Rich people pay more, because then they get more back. So, what would you prefer? a Society in which the Rich are stolen from, for making something of themselves???

What you Liberals want, is YOUR brand of tyranny, which does NOTHING to stop the corporate elite, OR our over-bearing Government system

You don't even TRY to understand my views, so to sit here and say they would do something, when you have NO earthly idea, is just plain ignorance.

PS, you've not "shown" anything; You quote YOURSELF as a source, and merely assume my views will only help the wealthy, because I talk about protection of property.

Whereas, every individual owns property; They own their body, and their work ethic.

No.. Freedom is to be free from bounds. Not Limited by anything. Some may think they have the "Freedom" to steal or, kill but, if you damage someone elses' property, you're giving up your Right to Live freely.

NO Government, could promise you these "freedoms," from these facts of life.

Freedom from harm? We have freedom to defend ourselves, but, cops don't come, until a crime has already been committed; Therefore, that is not a true freedom that Government can give you..

Freedom from exploitation? again, You have the freedom of self defense. You have the Freedom to Leave. No one can hold you captive, in a truly free society. You have the freedom to work for wages you see to be fair, and jobs that you're able and, willing to do. Forced labor is obviously a violation of that individuals freedom.


Freedom from hardship? Hardship is a fact of life. No Government can protect you from every bad thing in the world, or else, you'd have to have a cop with you at all times, and, a camera in every home. I'm sure you Liberals would love that, but, to many of us, that is the exact opposite of freedom.

Freedom from sickness? again, sickness is a fact of life. If you ask me though, if people were allowed to use natural medicines, and, were not forced into buying from the pharm industry, people would be much healthier. Medications cause death, guys to grow boobs, Suicidal actions and, every last mass shooting since the Columbine had one thing in common; SSRI drugs like prozac. Liberals are suddenly calling it a "Human Right" to be FORCED to buy into this industry monthly, for the rest of our lives.

Government Sympathizers, such as Liberals, have this view, that Government is not the problem, in his society, but the answer. When, really, you can't have Liberalism without the war machine, the Debt Machine and, the insane amounts of spending, theft and, violence, that goes along with Government.

Oh, please. NOW, you want to talk about the inequality of poverty??

You've stated that me wanting to end the Drug War would "only help the rich." Whereas, I've pointed out, how statistics show, that poor individuals are prosecuted MUCH more than wealthy people, and that blacks are prosecuted more than whites, despite the fact we all use drugs the same.


If you want to help poor people, end the War on Drugs.

Moreover, if only the Federal Reserve would stop printing money, and put more physical wealth (silver, gold etc.) into their vaults, the value of money would go way up, and their would be no reason to raise minimum wage. It is the inflation of our Dollar, that has caused prices to skyrocket, and left the middle class in need.

Liberalism, does nothing to stop this, or, help the middle class. No- they just want more Taxes, to go into buying more Government programs, which in reality, may be hurting people as much as it helps them. and, the Government hurts far more people than that. So, I feel it is Liberalism which is restricting freedom, by believing it is within your freedom, to steal from others, and, kill others, providing that you have the "majority vote"

again, you draw illogical assumptions of what will be. In a true free market, everyone has the opportunity to make something of themselves.

One can open a business in their garage, without owing the Government over 14 thousand dollars, for creating something They alone invented.

What we have today, on the other hand, is endless taxes, fees and regulations, which are designed to do Exactly what you accuse my views of doing (benefiting one over another.) and, making it harder for smaller businesses to come up and contest the Status Quo.

Obviously, without the Oligarch of the Federal Government, this type of Control is not possible.

That is why I believe your scare tactics are utterly groundless and, based on what we already have, and not what a true free market system would be.

That's not at all what I advocate, and if you weren't so blindly biased, you would realize that by now. In the free market, yes, certain people, with good ideas, do get rich. But, it is not as the market is today, which is designed to help certain industries, while hurting others. It is not designed to help banks who create money out of thin air, and loan it to people- with interest. It is not a system which buys and sells theoretical Debt slavery, as does the system we have today.

People who are afraid of Corporations, and not the Government, which enforces through force, the policies of the elite, are missing the whole point.

Free market capitalism allows for individuality, whereas, Government does not.

In the free market, you're allowed to willingly decide what you want to buy, and you get great service. With Government, you're FORCED to buy, what they want you to buy and, get lousy Service.

Liberalism is total Government Control of the Market, and, the manipulation of wealth and resources by them. and, it is the reason we're in this mess today.

The Middle class is being bled dry- Less taxes would help them, to a much greater degree.

The Middle class is shrinking due to the Liberal policies of Big Government, that have been perpetuated in the past 50 years.

In conclusion, Liberals look to Government to give them non-existent freedoms, that no Government can give you. They use Humanitarian Excuses, for supporting sheer force and violence.

You make all these assumptions on my views, that have no real world basis, and are just meant to Demonize and propagandize any views that are not in favor of the current power structure...

 

The reason we have the society as it is now as opposed to one where everyone is truly free is because the majority of people craves a non violent and peaceful society more than total freedom. That's why people who want 'true freedom' seem like a minority. That we the people try to use government to influence our society is only normal. Don't you think?

 

No, I don't think. and I'll explain more later.

 

You may not like it that it is a normal way for the majority to impact society but it is. I look forward to your explanation.

 

I disagree with your premise. I think a free society would be a truly non-violet and, peaceful society. Futhermore, I believe, that endorsing a system of violence, as means of accomplishing "peace," is a mere facade. It is not a peaceful and non-violent society, which punishes people for Non-violent crimes, executes innocent citizens and, restricts our Rights

I think it is ignorant of the History of Government, to say they are means of achieving peace and non-violence.

EVERYTHING the Government does, is based on force and violence.

No. Not when one undertands that Government is based on the idea, that one group of individuals, is more morally acceptable, than the individuals.
Whereas, Government is sheer force, and nothing else. Their Power, relies on their ability to steal from the taxpayer, and control them with arbitrary laws.

I do blame people, even Liberals, for accepting Government, with all their force and violence, to accomplish "peace," because really, all both sides are doing, is causing massive harm, on everyone else, through Government expansion and Force, and there is NO excuse for it...

Even the Humanitarian excuse falls flat, especially the way Liberals defend Government Force, in the name of "helping people"

 

Hm, that was slightly dissappointing. You are basically saying that it shouldn't be normal, which with I can agree or at least sympathize. But it is normal and has been normal for 1000s of years. I'm not saying government is always peaceful or something. I am saying people have been using government to influence society for millenia, and yes they succesfully used it to decrease violence in their own society and make it more peaceful indeed. And it is a normal thing to do. To say otherwise seems to be wishful thinking, which I can understand and relate to, but why not acknowledge reality at the same time? To say it is not so makes no sense to me.

 

I like how idealistic you are, and I don't want to say you're wrong but I also don't really think you're right.

Government and people with power have traditionally used their power and money to fund wars in their own self interest. However, government is made up of people and therefore is simply a reflection of human nature.

Violence is human nature and peace is also human nature and whether you lean towards one or the other depends on your environment and brain chemistry. I dont think evil will be eradicated just because we eradicate government.

I also think its human nature to impose one's will upon another. This isn't true of everyone but it is true of some, whether or not they have government backing them.

 

But, it is also based around lies and misconceptions. Let's not forget, ancient Governments had to call themselves "Gods" and, other such non-sense, as means of maintaining power. The idea of Government is "security," which, doesn't add up, when you consider how much damage the Government Causes on the Individual.

Yes, I'm saying this shouldn't be normal; Because, we give Government a pass to kill, steal and, do things we KNOW are morally wrong, without questioning their decisions in the slightest.

How so? Government has killed innocent men, women and, children- in the name of changing individuals behaviors. Because of the War on Drugs, Toddlers are burned with flash bangs, police raid houses (many times the wrong houses,) and, kills dogs, old people and, KIDS, for the purpose of maintaining a fabricated sense of "order."

To say we have decreased crime, by creating and giving power to a criminal racket, contradicts ones basic common sense. Cops harass Black people, poor people and, teenagers, in the name of behavior Modification.

The Government has killed 160 Million people over the last century alone. Think about that. This Country only has 313 million people.

To put that in perspective, The Government has killed, equal to Half the US Population, in the last century alone.

The Government has also allowed countries to attack the US, including with 9/11, and, the Cia, has also planned to commit Terrorism in the US, as a pretext to war.


You still think Government is used to maintain peace?

I'm sorry, but, I believe the US Government is the biggest terrorist on this planet. They kill, maim and brutalize people worldwide, in the name of maintaining arbitrary laws, that they themselves do not follow.

To you, because you are a Liberal. The past 40 years, we have done nothing but expanded Government, raising taxes, creating laws and pushing massive regulations. The direct result of that, is the Rich have gotten Richer, the Middle class is shrinking rapidly and, the poor are unfairly prosecuted and kept down, by laws which are made to prosecute peaceful people for non-violent crimes.

You're not acknowledging all of the evil Government does, either. To commit all this violence on peaceful people, they have given themselves the authority to execute you, or lock you up forever, at the discretion of the Government alone. To say that this is keep us "safe," and maintaining "peace" is utterly invalid to me. The Government is a bully Nationwide Gang, which creates the laws, while violating their laws. Government is known to bring Drugs into the country, work with Drug Cartels and, turn a blind eye, for a price.

In the meantime, they lock people up for years and years, for petty possession charges. They kill kids and animals (many times in the wrong homes)

Imo, they are creating the Force and violence, and do not represent a peaceful free society in the least.

You are saying essentially, that order, at the tip of a gun, is "peace," and, I reject that premise entirely.

 

Mallai, I have already destroyed this argument when MONK made it, that people are automatically "evil"

It went as follows....


What you're insinuating here, is that people are evil and corrupt by nature, and, government is a reflection of that.

however, we still "need" government, to protect us from animalistic-human nature, which compels us to run around hurting people, because it is in our nature.

imo, this is just an excuse for government. People are not like animals, because, we have our own code of morality. IE in nature, it is not wrong to have unconsentual sex, or, kill another animal.

But people, understand these things are immoral, and a majority of people, don't do it. I think, people who do decide to commit a crime, has a thought process, that goes through their mind, unlike any other animal. It isn't governmental laws that makes people reconsider, but many times, it's hurting other people.

I'm personally very empathic, and wouldn't want to hurt anyone. This is why I strongly disagree with this theory, because you're telling me, we as people do things because we can, basically, and, I don't think that is true Human Nature.

 

The whole "protections of personal property" deal...

Great, I get to sue a corporation that has already killed all my trees. Maybe I even win, but I doubt it because they have the lawyers that can get them out every time. Who the FUCK is going to put the trees back as they were? Huh? Who? How?

So maybe not trees, maybe the "accidentally" pollute the water supply, dump toxic waste, whatever... Take your choice. Damage is already done, can't be fixed and money won't help.


This idea that you have about personal property rights makes me sick. Serious flaw in your plan. Very serious. And none of you libertarians can ever provide a real answer to this flaw.

*begin spouting about the corrupt EPA...* Just like you always do. That's not a real answer. And don't you dare call me a liberal Obama supporter, You know better.

 

I'm not saying government prevents people from doing bad things, I'm saying people will do bad things with or without government. Just because you're a good and moral person doesn't mean everyone is.

 

"A peaceful non-violent society is inevitable."

Dream on. The actions of and therefore the results of every society are those that the people with the most money/power over others determine. Greed is a powerful motivator, minor/personal empathies not withstanding.

 

It makes more sense than being disallowed to sue Corporations, as it is today, under the Government.

This is why I say you Liberals have knee-jerk reactions to problems that are much more complex than you know. You don't want to be able to protect yourself from violence or damage to your property? Than, the world you get, is the one we have today, where the Epa take BRIBES, for corporations destroying the earth, and NO protection for the citizens.
You liberals are nothing but brainwashed tools. Just as bad as Bush Republicans...

 

Did you just call me a liberal?

 

But, it doesn't mean everyone is bad, either. Violent crimes have gone down 48%, since 1993, and, that's not due to the creation of more laws, but, rather the advancement of mankind as a whole.

People are not inherently bad or, evil. This is a mere excuse, to insinuate we "need" a criminal organization of violence, to keep us all in line. That's not the case. You're only committing a morally reprehensible act, if you're hurting someone else. It is NOT within the Governments authority to tell me what I put in my own body.

 

I consider everyone who believes in the expansion of Government, a "Liberal."

Expanding Government, and, giving them money and power are Liberal ideas, which derived from Communism, which was sponsored by the Rothechilds, and other Elite bankers that still Control Our Government. I'm sorry, but, reality is biased against the lies of Liberalism...

 

actually, you Liberals need to dream on, thinking you can FORCE your will onto 313 million people, and there will be no reaction.


To EVERY action, there's an equal and opposite reaction...


Go ahead, you ignorant Big Brother Sympathizers, Thumbs Down Every one of my posts. It is YOU who is on the wrong side of history, and the wrong side of Humanity. You're defending people who kill children, and Democratically-elected officials, for mere control.

Yes, some people will always think they can Control People, will or without Government. But, YOU cannot. Individuals control themselves, and, will always.

When I see stupid Liberals like you, who want to take away the Constitution and basic Human Freedoms due to sheer and utter ignorance, That is the 1 flaw about mankind; people like you who think EVERYONE NEEDS to deal ewith an institution of FORCE, just because YOU think people are too stupid to live together freely, is the ONLY thing that makes me question whether we can live together freely and peacefully.

There is NO peace at the tip of a gun, which is something MLK Jr. understood very well.

DOWN With you Puppet Master.


Shame on you, you, small-minded Government Sympathizer.

 

So if we dislike your unnuanced personal convictions we are big brother sympathizers?

By the way, just wondering: is this thread about liberals?