A Path

Many on this forum seem to be asking.
What 'Philosophy' results in an agnostic position.

Occam came to agnosticsim. A position on the theoretical existance of
a creator/s of everything.
Held without emotional attachment.
From a philosophy of life and understanding based in,
Ataraxy.

There are many stoic slants to the term.
But it is not a philosophy, as much as allowing a viable one.
A position of options.

Occam

 

Sometimes gaining something requires us to leave our peace of mind.

 

kharakov, do you not have peace of mind with your philosophy?

occam, i don't know what you mean by... a philosophy based in ataraxy.
humans are emotional. what do you make of human emotions; unnecessary burden?
if agnosticism is essentially acknowledgement of the mysterious, and nothing more,
surely there are still emotions attached....wonder, love, fear,
?

edit: and am i misreading that you have come to (unemotionally) believe in creator(s)?

the way i see things is: What The Fuck Is Going On? and i really want to know. agnosticism is the same thing as the wonder of socrates in ancient athens, real curiousity and not lying to yourself that you know things when the only truth is that "i don't know". i am full of emotions like wonder and love and fear, but they are directed at nothing in particular. i am also full of what i consider to be reason. why is one better than the other?

 

Love of wisdom brings peace of mind when you find wisdom. However, there are times when the wisdom you have found is simply a step towards greater wisdom, and you must leave what you have found to gain that which is greater.

It's nice to stop and smell the roses, but the end of the hike is the true resting place.

For some, a step along the path towards true wisdom is agnosticism. Agnostics find temporary solace in acknowledging that they do not commit themselves to any approach because they do not know which is correct. Of course, eventually, to find true wisdom, they will be drawn towards a specific path, and as the saying goes "All roads lead to Rome" (buddhism, christianity, dionysian mystery cults, hinduism, freemasonry, satanism, etc.).

Anyways, a side note: there are lots of paths that interconnect the major thoroughfares (religions) with eachother. After you gain a certain amount of wisdom, you will be able to navigate through the different religions the same way you can find you around your home town...

 

Why do some people prefer the east coast, and some the west?

 

good point. rip biggie smalls, rip tupac. word.

...yeah, i know shit about rap.

 

this'll be a somewhat delayed question, but how do you know that you haven't only given in to your desire for a philosophical platform? do you know what i mean? obviously you can't prove anything to me; but you have your feelings of wisdom - what are those?

you know i love ya, so i'll ask - how can you ever say you know you're right without that little bit of honesty/ inner sincerity/reason voicing that you may be fooling yourself?
i was listening to this woman the other day tell me about all the different 'spiritual planes'... with interest, and open-mindedness, but i always maintain that i couldn't demean myself, that sincerity and reason, by adopting that or any philosophy that isn't proveable in all ways,
not just 'feeling'.

 

Well, the desire for wisdom was put in me so that I would enjoy recieving it, the same way the desire for a ham sammich is put in me so I will enjoy the eating of it. If wisdom was not desirable, would it be enjoyable to have?

Anyway, to answer your question: How do I know the tree ~10-20 feet from me has pine needles on it when I close my eyes?

Love.

The voice of inexperience dies out amid experience.

I listened to my dad talk about NMR spectra a few times, with interest (well a little bit) and open-mindedness. I don't think I understand it the same way he does though- he's been doing NMR for over 20 years.

Well?

Wisdom is understanding of feeling. Do you understand what you feel? Do you know what it is?

 

you don't!

but how many hundreds of different religious philosophies could say the same thing? reverend, rabbi, guru, father bob... they also would claim experience, religious experience of 'truth'. but if they then continue on to say something differing from your philosophy... what? in your eyes, they've lied to themselves about how much they know.

lol.. man, i remember doing nmr spec in chem... kind of doing it anyway. at the time i was becoming more interested in doing drugs and watching the birds fly around. and rightly so!! i'm coming back around now, though....

no

no
how do you know that you do? a feeling of wisdom? sounds like a trap.

 

The thing to do is to accumulate experience so that you can recognize truth. If you don't recognize truth, you are going to take my jokes seriously. Anyway, I don't know when God is gonna stop playing jokes on me... I kind doubt it will ever happen.

Of course it's a trap. God's hunting for a wabbit. Well, a playboy bunny. Ohh, wait, that's me.

 

HippyGirl

Yes, humans are emotional.
The greatest things in life are Love and Wonder...of and for life, and others.
Without desire...we would want nothing..and learn nothing.
Desire is the MOTOR that drives us to act...
BUT IT SHOULD NEVER STEER THE CAR.
Look at this world that is as it is because DESIRE and EGO are right now steering the vehicle called humanity.

Now occam asks you...in gaining understanding,,what possible use is emotion? Human understanding of the existant world and reality has only ever been gained when reason was wielded.. not emotion.
Einstien himself says that rational/imagination driven by a deep sense of wonder. Is the greatest tool for human understanding.

Agnosticism is held by occam, yes, as an acknowledgment of the mysterious as you say. But that 'mystery' does not come from emotion, but from reason. For mystery is just something we dont understand ..yet.

You say your wonder, love, and fear are directed at nothing in particular.
Occam thinks this is because THEY CANNOT be used as tools to reveal understanding of reality.
In understanding reality, there should be NO emotional attachment to ideas/concepts.

But if Emotion and Reason are ballanced.
If emotion DRIVES us, and reason STEERS.
If love/compassion/wonder, Are chosen as the emotions that underpin
and allow the true worth of reason.
Rather than greed, fear and self interest.

We will grow up.

Occam

PS.
A small example
Say you love your dog..a lot..you find it one day
in the back yard..choking to death on a bone stuck in it's throat.
Now...what emotion will save it's life?
None..Your love and compassion WILL WANT TO SAVE IT.
But emotion cannot plan and resolve problems.
THAT, is what REASON does.

And so reason , driven by love, lets you stick your fingers down the dogs throat and remove the bone that reason and reason alone understood as the cause of the entire event.

 

Awesome Occam. You completed the thoughts that were forming in my head while I was waking up this morning.

 

thanks occam, that was a perfect answer. i thought at first that you were explaining a pro-some kind of emotionless, ascetic lifestyle. like mr spock in your other thread, is totally emotionless, unimpassioned, whatever. but we aren't like that, because we're human, and we have to use all the parts of our being. if we abandon emotion for reason, i bet that within a half a century science will be deserted and a hundred happy religions will pop up in its stead.

 

Hippy Girl

What is YIN YANG to you?

To occam the black/white swirlies that fit together [with dots]
symbolise EXACLY the ballance of the two great forces in human life.

Emotion
And
Reason.

The Why
&
The How

Occam

Ps.
We can abandon neither emotion or reason.
They are not so simple a thing to cut out as a leg or an eye.

 

what do agnostic scientists, rationalists, logicians, and skeptics in general have by way of emotion? that is, a way to express and embrace that emotion? it seems that in general, these people favour reason over emotion, just as the 'faithful' favour emotion over reason.

i agree with your point made above.

so, as the blind faithful should spend more time embracing reason, should the cold scientists set aside an hour or two a day to hug each other and sing and dance around a fire? ... gather a few bunsen burners in the middle of the lab, it could be managed...

kidding aside though, what does emotion come to without any emotional human ritual?

 

Kharakov

Occam woke up with the fading memory of a dream about a REALLY nice girl.
She looked like Kathryne Erbe from 'Criminal Intent'
Just as smart.
Just as subtle and just as playfull.

And then occam woke up...

Occam

 

HippyGirl

Dont believe human science is ANYWHERE near being ballanced emotionally/rationally.
That comes to ALL equally.
ANY can be so.
Jose in seatle
Pamela in brisbane
Wei in chungking
Joachim in germany.

Their occupation is irrelevant. Clerk, worker, Geneticist, Home keeper.
Their Way of thought..everything.

You seem to have
"Reason the heartless machine"on one side of the fence.
And
"Emotion is what we really are" on the other.

Maybe.
Emotion is why we really are and reason is how we get to be so.



Occam

 

i see.

yes, i see the difference now. using reason for an occupation but not only being reason. thanks.

 

Hahahaha!!! I love you Occam. I had the exact same type of waking dream this morning (about 4am EST). It was more of a vision, for i was holding still and the one I love touched me deep inside, this sweetness filled all my limbs and... well... I lay there in bed for a while as the sweetness faded to an ache in my heart.

 

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstein

I believe all religion, and all science, originates from the same mystic experience, the mysterious and overwhelming realization that there is always far more to reality than what we know.