a few quetions

A few things in the tao te ching confuse me. they say things like when beauty is abstracted, ugliness is implies. is this telling us not to distiguish between beauty and ugliness or is it just explaining the ways of yin and yang? And it says that the Tao is a treasure for believers and a refuge for sinners. Does this imply that no matter what you do in life the Tao is obtainable? I first thought that the tao is the unexplainable path that will lead to everlasting happiness obtainable through being simple minded and becoming one with all things. If this is true, how do people who do not practice such things become one with the tao in the next life? Maybe im not making any sense at all.

 

Regarding your first question, I guess you could say it is explaining the ways yin and yang, or to put it another way, it is explaining the way of relativity. We know tall by short, warm by cold, happy by sad, ugly by beautiful etc. Opposites don't exist separately from each other, they define each other. Each is what it is because of the other.

As for the Tao being obtainable or unobtainable, there is nothing to obtain. You already are one with Tao. You already are one with all things, there is just realizing it or not realizing it. Happiness, at least as you know it, can never be everlasting, because it can ony be experienced in relation to suffering.

As long as one seeks happiness one is believing that it is somewhere else, so no one seeking happiness can be happy. Taoism isn't so much about seeking relative happiness in the world as it is about cultivating contentment in ones self by realistic acceptance of the nature of things.

That's my understanding, anyway. Hope that helps.

 

^ yea. Don't get caught up in the meanings and what is attainable. Everything is right as it should be. And you are one with it.

 

not quite everything it seems. Are islamic fundamentalist suicide bombers 'as they should be'?
Are the millions of consumers driving their gas-guzzling 4x4's?

It's not that one can say there is something to attain or there is not something to attain. Thats the thing about taoism which is forever insolulable to the rational thinking mind.

 

Actully I think what draws me to Taoism is that it's one of the most rational and realistic philosophies out there. I think a lot of people think it is nonrational because it doesn't conform to most peoples normal way of thinking, but it's actually most people's normal way of thinking that does not make sense.

 

Yes. Of course. They ARE aren't they?

 

True, everything has a part in the yin yang of this relative universe. Does that mean it's ok to run out and buy an SUV and help burn fossil feuls, or subscribe to an extreamist religion? No, just means that we have challenges and the opportunity to experience life more fully by facing them.

 

I agree, but I'm not sure if I agree 100%. Why classify something as "not ok"? Perhaps it's not ok for "you" but it's foolish to claim the same for others. Not that I'm excited to see things happen that create sadness, far from it, but those things are as much a part of the universe as anything we deem as good.

" There is a Taoist story of an old farmer who had worked his crops for many years. One day his horse ran away. Upon hearing the news, his neighbors came to visit. "Such bad luck," they said sympathetically. "Maybe," the farmer replied. The next morning the horse returned, bringing with it three other wild horses. "How wonderful," the neighbors exclaimed. "Maybe," replied the old man. The following day, his son tried to ride one of the untamed horses, was thrown, and broke his leg. The neighbors again came to offer their sympathy on his misfortune. "Maybe," answered the farmer. The day after, military officials came to the village to draft young men into the army. Seeing that the son's leg was broken, they passed him by. The neighbors congratulated the farmer on how well things had turned out. "Maybe," said the farmer."

 

I just quoted the same story not long ago on one of the forums. It's really kind of a confusing subject in a way; the relativity of value judgments. One could say that nothing is unacceptable, that everything is only good or bad in one's viewpoint, but then again, carry that to an extreme and you could lie in bed till you starve or die of thirst for, after all, hunger and thirst are acceptable too so why do anything to change it? But then again, I don't think we came into this world to just wither away from over-acceptance.

This is an area of philosophy that leads me to believe that the best viewpoint is one that can embrace contradiction and ambiguity. Some things are true and not true at the same time depending on how it is looked at. Separation is another example. In a very real way we appear to be "separated" by the invisible existence we call space, yet at the same time, existence is existence and it is only our saying that the existence we call space is not us like our visible body is that creates the apparent reality of separation.

 

I tend to agree.

I'm perplexed as to why you would draw this conclusion/use this as an example. Your thought process and personal philosophy seems so sound.

 

I'm perplexed as to why you are perplexed. It's just taking the same logic all the way. If it's ok to let the environment become one that cannot support human life, it would, by the same logic be ok to starve to death lying in bed.

 

Is it expanding that logic?

If nothing is truly acceptable or unacceptable and it's a matter of perception, then essentially all actions within the universe are equal, and as such of equal importance. So why would this philosophy bind me to a bed unwilling to feed myself?

The evil and outrage people feel at the world around them is nothing new. Everything remains in its place, and is as it should be. If it so happens that the environment becomes unfit for human life then that is how it should be. So, while you certainly COULD remain in bed and die of famine, that is entirely different than allowing the world and its people to continue on their course.

It doesn't necessarily mean you don't do anything to try and stop it in your own world... But rather, that you realize all actions are in folly and ultimately unless that is the way it should be, it will never come about no matter how much you might want it to.

Have you ever read a separate reality? You might enjoy it, and it talks about just this thing.

 

Right, likewise, why would it bind one to not care about the environment.

Don't really understand the diference that much. Both going about feeding yourself to preserve your body and caring for the environment which is also your body really, both are responses to being alive in the world and both are as you say of equal importance since they are only acceptable or unacceptable as a matter of perception.

Right. It's natural to persue the preferances we have like not being hungry and having a sustainable environment, but it's also good to keep the perspective of everything being as it should be, even as you act to change things in persuit of your preferances. That's what I meant about embracing contradiction.

In a way everything is ok, in a way everything is not ok, but that's ok too. I think of wise people as always workiing to make the world a better place while at the same time remaining emotionally unattached to expected results. That's not always easy though.

I read it years ago so I don't remember it real well, but I remember it being an interesting read.

 

Thank you, I really enjoyed the story.

 

^ glad you liked it! Not my story obviously, many thousands of years old.

That's exactly what I mean.

 

Takes a while to learn to operate that way. I'm making progress. My freak out time gets shorter and shorter when things don't go my way. Sometimes I have to tell myself that story about the farmer and his son..or at least remind myself of it.

 

The process is more fun than getting to the end anyway

 

True. Hey that sig line sounds familiar. It's Pink I know that, just trying to remember if it's from "Meddle" or another album.

 

..journey to Ixtlan....

 

Thats the crucial word. Process.