I saw a special on pbs about this. I'll cut to the chase.... they come to live there but they are preserving not only cutoms of food and dress (which alot of immigrants do - which is fine) but also preserving the custom of holding back thier women/girls from an education even in Holland. This is becoming a human rights issue. think of it from an American perspective, we have laws here that make all children attend school, and laws that govern homeschooling. Holland does not have these laws, so how should they feel ?
You have a bit of a one-sided perspective on this; there are plenty of muslims here which are what we call 'well-integrated' - who do not hold back their female counterparts from education, and who do not preach nor follow radical islamic ideas. Just like you we have laws that make all children attend school - I think all Western countries have a such a law in place, and we are no exception. Does PBS broadcast their specials online, or are they accessible from somewhere? I'd love watching it and seeing how much is actually true. I'm confident velvet will add something to this as well
How did you guess? Over here you have to attend some kind of schooling untill you reach the age of 16. Homeschooling is very very rare here and discouraged by the government because they feel the social factor of going to school with peers is more important. There are a lot of different schools.. some are based on a specific kind of religion (Catholic, Muslim, Protestant, Hindu), some are based on a certain educational method (Montessori, Dalton, Jenaplan).. plus there are 'public' school which try to be non-religious (so basically they don't teach any religion or they teach a bit about all of them). Yes, there are a lot of muslims here and some of them are very well integrated, some are not. But I don't think their community is more closed than let's say.. the Chinese one (although that's a small community). There are also immigrant communities here from former colonies that are non-muslim, where some have intergration problems as well. Holland is an extremely liberal country.. even neigbouring countries question our drugpolicy or the way most crimes are handled.. let alone immigrants that come from countries where the government is either corrupt and/or pretty poor and/or more conservative. They have to get used to things here.. and it's up to us (the people who value the liberal ideas) and the government to make sure they intergrate in a way that is good for everyone.
I am not sure what the special was called or who made it... you could try pbs.org They did imply that females were held back from being educated, so I am glad to hear that is not the case. They showcased this young black female politician who needs to have bodyguards at all times, apparently she is the one who is making this issue public. PS I just saw in the news about the bomb at the muslim elementary school..... What kind of films did this Van-gogh filmaker do? were the films controversial towards muslims? What is the concensus over there on the non-well integrated part of the muslim population? PPPS - (since you guys are from The Netherlands) Why is the Netherlands not going to be a a part of the EU? (just so you know, I am liberal too and proud, I am just not exposed to all this info, I live in a town in the USA with a right wing newspaper *sigh* which is where I saw this EU map).
The black politian you saw is an immigrant (Ayaan Hirsi Ali.. she's from.. Somalia or sth like that?) who makes some strong statements about religion (she's opposed to every form of circumcision I believe, not only the female kind).. and she got threatened by more conservative people. There was an explosion in a muslim school this morning, well before any people arrived so no casualties. It was more a warning I guess. If you read my previous post, you can see that there are a lot of schools based on a certain type of religion, so yes, it's not uncommon that it is a muslim school. I'll leave the Theo van Gogh question to MonoMike The Netherlands not a part of the EU? I'm not that much into politics.. but as far as I know we ARE part of the EU.. we exchanged our currency (the guilder) for the Euro (which is used is (most) other EU countries now as well).. but the fact that several European countries work together doesn't mean (not yet at least) that we have a central government like the US. The Netherlands is not a 'state' of Europe.. we are a seperate country.. the EU can be seen the companionship of the Ring.. you had Legolas, Gimli, the hobbits etc.. but they were still their own people, they had their own culture.. they just worked together when needed. In this case, it's mostly about economics really.. to stand up against the US etc. Ah well..
Thank You, that makes things more clear. From a non-US perspective, do you think that most Europeans realize that there are ALOT of Americans who oppose the current administration of the US ? I am a bit scared that Mr.Bush was re-elected, I don't know the final polling results but over 40% of people who voted, voted for Kerry and he would have fixed this mess right up. What happened (which you may already know) was Mr.Bush started using his religion big time to get rural Christians out to vote for him. It worked out for him but it feels really unfair. John Kerry would have made a great president. The right wing is trying to say he was pandering about providing a health care option through the government. I wish I knew how many foreign countries ALREADY do that (I know there are alot). The only thing that would have prevented it is the stupid republican majority in the congress (which is NOT supposed to be that way when there's a republican president).... ok now i'm ranting.
If you're in doubt about Bush.. read this.. there are some serious doubts about the way he won the elections: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1106-30.htm
I would like to add my regrets to the rest of the world that my country allowed yet another tainted election to occur. When I visit Europe next spring, I plan on wearing a t-shirt that says: Please don't blame me... I didn't vote for him TWICE! Think that will keep me from having a server spit in my soup?
well... Holland is definitely part of the EU... maybe you've misread it... or the map was wrong... The muslim thing is big here... Integration has been a problem (or politicians have called it a problem) for a long time... and now it almost looks as if there's going to be a religion-based civil war. It has to be said that far from all muslims are radical... there's just this very small group of fundamentalists who don't mind killing for their beliefs... and they're pretty much fucking it up for everybody. You can already see people reacting far over the top... One politician (Geert Wilders) said that muslims shouldn't have any human rights anymore in Holland... It frightens me. Holland is already becoming more and more rightwing... I hope we stay liberal like we are now.
I am sorry to hear about the mounting unrest in Holland. Alot of liberal Americans think of it as the place to go when they can't take it here anymore. It seems that when threats of violence come about things start getting tighter, it is sad. Keep your chin up, hey at least you don't live in the US. I figured it out, its Norway and Switzerland that are not in the EU. As if you guys needed me to tell you that. peace. ps what is that french saying in english?
without you, todays emotions are just a shadow of the emotions of yesterday. 'shadow' isn't a literal translation though, not sure how to say it... it's from the movie Amélie which you, if you haven't already, must definitely see.
Quotes from an Associated Press interview with Dutch lawmaker Geert Wilders. "The Netherlands has been too tolerant for the intolerant people for too long." "I would stop the immigration immediately for the next five years for non-Western immigrants. Not because I have anything against foreigners or people from non-Western countries, but we have huge problems with integration." "We have a problem with the Islam in the Netherlands. We have a huge problems with radical Islam in the Netherlands. If we are not allowed to say it, we will never start working on a solution." "If in a mosque there is recruitment for jihad it's not a house of prayer, it's a house of war. If it's not a house of prayer it should be closed down." "They are centuries behind us and I believe this is a good way to look at it. ... If they take 1,500 years to come so far in the Middle East it's their problem, but not here on our soil." "The problem we have with the integration is that 10 percent or 100,000 Muslims — imagine over a population of 16 million it's huge — have already chosen for the radical Islam and we should try to help these people." "We have our own norms and values. If you chose for radical Islam you can leave, and if you don't leave voluntarily then we will send you away. This is the only message possible." "If we don't do anything ... We will lose the country that we have known for centuries. People don't want the Netherlands to be lost and this is something that I get angry about and I am going to fight for, to keep the country Dutch." this doesnt sound intolerent to me the last thing I heard was him and miss ali are in hiding because jihadis are out to kill them thats intolerant if you want to see theo van goghs film submission there are links to it in america attacks forum and if those dont work I have it and can try sending it to people who want to see it and pm me
