9/11 conspiracy- Don't know what to think.

But do you make up your own mind? Whenever I ask you to back things up, you just disappear. Kind of looks like you repeat what the conspiracy websites say but you don't actually do a lot of thinking for yourself.

 

History should be facts and not opinion, I mena like this DID happen and should be NO CONSPIRANCY when it DID friken happen!! But shoudl have an opinion of was it abd or good and what we should learn out of it that is what history tecahes us.

 

So you're basically saying that it's everyone's obligation to agree with what you feel to be true.

 

We had in Poland in 70,80ties phone switchboards with explosives installed by USA official merchants. So in case CIA could launch them any time and destroy Polish telecommunication instantly so tell me why Americans could not install explosives in building made in those years.

I mean that WTC could have Secret System of Self-destruction called $$$ or SS installed there as a bonus with elevation and ventilation in case for example of TA.

Exactly true. Those newly invented words: 'conspirators', 'terrorist' were invented to put the true into the shadow.

Condo-Bush wants to build missile staff in Poland? What they afraid about they say? Few additional missiles? On our territory few years ago we had hundreds of long distance rockets by our good brothers RuSSians.

Politics - they're just bored, they want to show who's ruling. We know that from history. They are ignorants. They have no creative imagination to do big things. Yes we need goodwill. Not truffles with bear debating about hunger.

Czech are selling their asses each time before the war. They want to hide under the wing of mightiest (as with Germany). (they agreed to radar)
Imagine those guys who once made mistake and illegally raped one country. They want to repeat. To prove themselves that it is necessary and right. So they creating another situation that pushes their people to war. This is like an addiction. Imagine Bush after 7,5 year with one big mistake (which he still do not believe) He, rather people from backyard are like a narcs with a bit of conscience problems. They are losers so they act like losers.

If 9/11 is inside work there will be attack on Iran pretty soon.

 

I m absically saying taht History is that something happened and we can not deny it, there is no such a thing as TRUTH.... if yu get what I am saying. There are many ways to see the incident but only one way really happened.

Listen, Astrolog, this mite be true right, but Bush isn't complete ididot to start a new war. Y? The Russians always stick their noses in when it comes to war and Americans, if he starts another war with someone. Russians, didn't they go on the VIetnamese site during the Vietnam war? And weren't they the once who started the Cold War with the US rite AFTER the WW2. Listen if Russia goes to war EUROPE will go to war and than we have WW3 -.-''
Nooooo the Us. governement wont risk that, politics are a bunch scared dogs ( sorry i really dn't like Politics) so i dn't think that Bush would go that far. He mite be dumb but not lifesick.

 

And which way is the "one way it really happened" is what we're discussing here. You may choose to accept the official version of everything, but some people prefer to do their own research and come to their own conclusions.

 

Don't you think that if Bush really did it, EVERYONE would ve found out by now?? "truth" always come sto the surface somehow, if it didn't than it wasn't him.

Listen, here is an idea, durin the ww2 the us goverment dropped TWO bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki rite? One of the main reasons was to test it, itw a sin the end of the war and not needed for that. So if the US government is a bunch of people who doens't care, y did they not drop the BOMB on they re own people saying that it was THE GERMANS!!??

 

thank you for that response. im sorry for being agressive towards you, and i appreciate the evidence. i am open-minded about this still, and would like to read and learn about views which contradict what i believe at the moment, rather than just be in continuous arguements of 'i'm right' 'no i am' which normally happens with this subject!!

 

Nagh, we are equal now.
In a good way, I'm not normal.

 

Bush didn't do it. He probably knew about it, but he's an idiot -- there's no way he could pull off something like that. The people who orchestrated this were a lot smarter and more powerful than Bush.

And the truth always comes to the surface? Don't make me laugh. Truth almost never comes to the surface. The truth about so many things is hidden from public view that it could leave one speechless.

And the second part of your post... wow. I don't even know how to address something so inane. I'm sorry to be so harsh, but do you think at all before you speak?

 

The USA needed no excuse to go to war with Germany (U-boats and other ships were being destroyed) or Japan (Pearl Harbour), but, it did need an excuse to go to war with Afghanistan as that country offered no threat.
Indeed, look at the USA's history, and see what they did to Panama, Ecuador, hell, the whole of South America is in turmoil because of the USA's interference.

A (relatively) innocent man thrown in prison for life for being the president of a country that had something America wanted and refused to hand it over. How can a leader of a country that offers no threat to any other country be arrested and imprisoned under US law? Doesn't this strike you as an infringement on world and human rights?

His predecessor murdered by the CIA for wanting to own what was his country's (and who else should own the Panama Canal but Panama?)
Oh and look at the sudden airplane crashes, the mysterious deaths at prominent times of many national leaders over the past sixty years.

So although you make a mocking comment, make sure you KNOW history.
Of course it never made it to Fox News. Who controls the media after-all?
But the rest of the world was in uproar, South American papers screamed CIA MURDERED TORRIJOS, and Wikipedia (which is, by the way, overlooked by the CIA too) claims he was brutal and intolerant and speaks of him being drunk. In reality he stood for the poor and was voted in democratically and stood his ground against America, which was, as he knew, something he would die for.

I don't make a claim that Middle Eastern leaders were like him, as I'm sure they weren't, but the facts are so similar. Those countries have something America wants - oil reserves in this case. Just as the President of Ecuador was killed because he wouldn't kneel to the Bush administration, so was Saddam Hussien (albiet Bush-junior).

So, people who believe 9/11 was an inside job, that bin Laden was set up, that Saddam Hussien was guilty of telling the US government to piss off more than the atrocities he committed to his people... they aren't mad and just believing something for the hell of it.

They're people who've kept an eye on what America has done in the past, people who realise the CIA are out of control, are answerable to no one, and nothing is beyond them - and I believe that includes attacking their own country.

Maybe this is wrong. Maybe it was terrorists from the middle east. But it makes no difference. Because the blame of what happened STILL lies at the feet of the CIA and the US government.

 

It's easy to become lost in the torrent of recommendations for Loose Change, Zeitgeist, BlameTheJewserrwemeanZionists.com, BushIsTehMurderest.com etc.. If you decide to embark on a quest to learn the Truth about 9/11, please, please, please do endeavor to research both sides of the debate; ie, make an effort to check and cross-check claims made by both sides. All too often, people read only the very basic 9/11 Commission Report and contrast it with the vast number of (often humorously contradictory and mutually accusatory) critiques of it online.

Here's a list of sites that came immediately to mind when considering those that defend the official explanation or something close to it:

http://www.911myths.com/
http://www.jod911.com/
http://emptv.com/research/loose-change
http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/

If you peek around on youtube, you can find annotated versions of at least a couple of the Big Movies (like Loose Change, likely Zeitgest as well, etc).

When I first began researching 9/11 (I was a rather hardcore student-hobbyist of Afghan history, esp wrt the hero Mujihadeen Ahmed Shah Massoud, so I dove immediately into it), I was shocked by some of the "evidence" that was available to indicate that the truth had not come out. For two weeks, I was rather sickened by thought that my government (whether rogue elements therein or as official, covert policy set at it's apex) just maybe, just might have engaged in mass murder of its own citizens. But then I began researching each and every "fact" as presented by the so-called "Truth movement", only to determine that the vast majority of this "evidence" was exaggerated, ripped from its proper context (eg, esp with respect to quoting witnesses), spun from whole cloth, contradictory, etc...

To be clear though, I am not here and now interested in spending time debunking 9/11 conspiracy theories. I've spent probably scores of hours doing just that, with many more lonely hours spent in research. Instead, I am interested in encouraging obviously smart and curious people to carefully examine both sides of the issue, as unfortunately so rarely occurs. For every hour you spend on a "9/11 Conspiracy/Truth" site, spend 30-60 minutes researching the same facts yourself, using primary news and anti-conspiracy sites as your sources. If nothing else, you will be well equipped to defend your decision to place your belief in the conspiratorial explanations.

Yours, best,
haji

 

I know history just froma european point of view.

Wait up tehre is something i don't get, wasn't Saddam Hussain a terrorist in his own country? Are u trying to sya he was innocent?

[quote Maybe this is wrong. Maybe it was terrorists from the middle east. But it makes no difference. Because the blame of what happened STILL lies at the feet of the CIA and the US government.[/QUOTE]

Well there you have a point...

 

But it did though, Al Queda had been based there a while and had already attacked the US on several occasions. The 911 attacks were just bigger and more successful.

South America is not in turmoil, in fact with the exception of Cuba it is more democratic and stable than it has ever been.

Nobody.

But the US hasn't taken oil from anybody. Haven't you noticed that little flaw in your theory?

Sure they are. This is a standard narrative... hey look, the US is bad, therefore anything bad anywhere could be America's fault! Well you're just forgetting a little place called THE REST OF THE WORLD. Bad things happen without the US being to blame.

Too bad there's no evidence for it.

It is.

It was.

WTF?!?! Yes obviously the conclusion remains the same regardless of the facts. Blame America!

 

I'm not saying he was innocent at all. As far as his actions go he was a brutal, unpleasant man, but no worse than many other world leaders out there, who are left to get on with it by America (think Zimbabwe, North Korea, China, for a few examples).
I don't believe we should let people rule countries when they break so many human rights issues, and something should, of course, been done.

But America didn't invade Afghanistan or Iraq because they cared about the human rights issues, and I think that's clear to everyone.

 

Ah. Yes, there have been attacks on Americans. Like the hostages taken and stuff, I know that. But you're not looking back far enough. Americas involvement didn't start after 9/11. They'd been very involved, very tied up in the Middle East for years. They've had a foot in Saudi Arabia since the 70s.
The bin Ladens were friends of the Bush's, and Al Quaeda was put in place by America, as was Saddam Hussien. Things went wrong when these people didn't want to be controlled anymore, like for Manuel Noriega.
Americas usual way of working these things out didn't work. They hadn't openly invaded a country since Vietnam, because that had gone so wrong for them. It was clearly out of desperation that they did so this time, and they would need a BIG excuse. They would need the whole civilised world to be on their side before they did this. It wasn't a sly undercover mission or a bomb in an aeroplane. It was BIG. And it would last a long-time.

Do you know about the constant fighting going on between the native people and the envoys? Drug wars? Political fighting and disappearances? Hostages and kidnaps?

Nobody controls the media? So it just happens all by itself?
I imagine the media in Nazi Germany wasn't controlled by anyone either then, and all that negative propaganda was actually truth.

The media has massive impact and control of people's thoughts and emotions, and so of course people with agendas will use this to their advantage. That's human nature, wrong as it is.

No, of course not. They magic their oil out of thin air don't they.
And it's not my theory, it's fact. Do some research, and I don't mean reading Wikipedia.

I can understand why you're getting heated and angry, but really, no one is having a go at you. Are you American? I've noticed when I've been there how much patriotism is instilled in kids from a very early age and it's very dangerous, because it does lead to unacceptance that their country could be in the wrong. I'm not saying that of you, it's just an obeservation from talking to a lot of Americans.

I'm not saying the US is bad. The US is a lump of land full of some beautiful areas and some good and bad people and good and bad things going on, just like everywhere. However the fact remains that the people in control of this country exploit and manipulate other people everywhere for their own advantage and gain.
It's little different to the way the British acted when they had their empire, or the Spanish, French, Romans, Greeks, Chinese - people are all the same, it's not a slight at Americans, and claiming everyone else is innocent, of course not, but the issue we're talking about here, is the fault of the US government and the CIA. If you'd like to talk about things which are the fault of other countries of people then that's fine I'd be happy to have a conversation with you.
But please refrain from emotionally exploding over this, as I'm clearly not saying America is to blame for every bad thing in the world.

Okay. That's fine. I can't prove to you what I believe. That means it's as good as false to you?
This isn't a game I'm playing here. It's not 'I win because I've got more evidence for my arguement'.
We shouldn't be at each others throats. This should be about finding the truth, and listening and communicating with other people, rather than having tantrums when people don't agree with us.
I'm not having a go at you personally, and I have no hard-feelings towards you.

The facts are important, I was wrong to say they weren't. But do you think the hatred towards America is founded on nothing?

 

Though you joined in September '06, you only have 41 posts, so I'm going to guess you can be considered fairly new here. Therefore, a word of advice: arguing with this guy (whatever name he's using at the time) is pointless. He's not here to discuss or debate, he's here to derail discussions and debates. He's not going to look at your evidence, or consider your side, nor is he going to make any concessions, no matter how small.

The guy is, quite simply, an intelligence agent (COINTELPRO). He posts under the same names on a number of other forums, doing the exact same thing he does here. Never does he discuss anything but political issues, and never does he discuss himself or his personal life. He never even states what his views on any particular subject are, he just attacks others for their views, using tactics to derail the conversation. He posts links to supposed evidence that, if anyone bothers to read it, is not at all what he claimed it to be. Any point he can't attempt to refute, he ignores. Not to mention that he spends most of his time in personal attacks on his opponents, making assertions about them as if he knows them personally. The guy is, at best, a troll, at worst, a plant. Either way, it's not worth arguing with him.

 

Because paranoid conspiracy theorist Pressed Rat says so?

Wow that's the most bizarre thing in the history of the world - someone that has the same user name on more than one website! Can you imagine that! And what's even weirder, his personality and views don't change on different websites! OMG totally COINTELPRO!

Lie number one. For example, I have commented in the computers forum.

Lie number two, for example I have revealed what I do for a living.

Lie number three, I have plenty of views. I am a libertarian. I oppose communism. I support democracy. I support free trade and free markets. All of this stuff has come up in the past.

Shall we delve into your track record of making statements and backing them up with nothing? Thought not.

Most of the time? Really? Please back that up. YOU are the one calling me an intelligence agent, yet you whine about personal attacks?

Don't be a sore loser. If you could back up what you say, you wouldn't have to storm off in a huff.

 

I can back up what I say. If you're so well-researched, I'd think you would be capable of reading a document without having the relevant sections quoted to you. A simple CTRL+F will probably find you what you're looking for. If you want to believe I haven't read it, go ahead. But you should probably read it yourself, either way. Maybe I should just go with your strategy: prove to me that it says what you think it says, otherwise I'm right.

And all those "lies"... come on, man. So you posted in the Computers forum a couple of times. I haven't seen you engage in any discussions about anything but politics. But it doesn't seem to matter what forum they're in, so obviously you seek them out.

So you've revealed what you do for a living. That doesn't make you a real person. No one here knows you. You have no friends. All you do is attack other people's views.

And in general terms, I guess those are your views. But on any specific issue, do you ever give your point of view? I've never seen you say anything like "I think this is the case...", or "I think this is what needs to happen...", etc. You always just attack other people who are saying these things.

And that post was a perfect example. Characterizing my assertions about you as "lies". They're not lies. I feel that they're the truth. If you disagree, tell me why. Calling them lies implies that I'm trying to actively deceive someone, which I'm not.

And like I said, I don't have to quote things to you. I have backed up what I said. I told you the name of the document and the location where it can be read. If you're not going to read it, that's fine -- I really don't give a shit. But don't come back and tell me that I refused to back anything up. That's an outright lie.

 

No, I mean big bombings.

Yes, as have other countries. European colonial involvement goes back much farther, and the Soviets were also very active in the region.

Some family members, but not Osama, the "black sheep".

No it was not.

NO, he was not. I'm not just saying this, I've been through this many times. Its a popular myth.

Things went wrong when he invaded Kuwait!

I don't know what this means, since they didn't invade Vietnam.

Did what?

No actually, what are you talking about?

In Colombia yes, but what is the relevance?

I know these countries have problems, but look at history - they are more democratic, more peaceful, more stable than they have been in decades.

"The media" is an expression. "The media" is not one giant monolith. It is hundreds of tv channels, newspapers, radio stations, websites - and that's just what's produced in the US. Americans have access to even more international media. Even if you look at CNN or Fox News, it is just a fraction of the market. You can be the media if you start your own blog or website. How can you compare this to Nazi Germany?

Does it control your thoughts and emotions?

Well lets see... when Saddam was in power, the Iraqis sold oil on the international commodity markets and we bought it. Now that we've thrown him out, the Iraqis sell oil on the international commodity markets and we buy it. What's changed? We have not taken anybody's oil.

Trust me, I'm not upset in the least, I just come across that way sometimes. Don't sugar coat anything for my sake.

I did not grow up in the US. And I live in the UK at the moment. I've lived in a lot of countries.

Well that's what I'd like to debate.

What issue is the fault of the CIA and the US Government?

No, the topic is 911 conspiracy, I'm happy to stick to the topic.

Don't worry no exploding! Really you can say whatever you want, I get people accusing me of being a government spy because I won't believe their conspiracies, have you got anything worse than that in store for me?

What I was trying to point out is that some people discuss the US as if it is the only country with intelligence agencies, the only country witha foreign policy, the only country with interests anywhere. So its like a police lineup with one suspect and what do you know Uncle Sam gets fingered every time.

No, its just not enough to convince me. That's why I want to hear why.

Nope, you're right, its just a debate and probably nobody will change their mind.

I think we are debating just fine. Don't be offended if I ask questions or ask to see evidence or hear your logic. I'm just aksing because I want to know.

Me either, but really, don't worry - if you think I'm out of line, say so! I'm not gong to be offended.

No I don't. Well, sometimes it is. And sometimes the reasons they hate is is not the reasons people assume they hate us.