25 Million Dollars, it must be true.....

Here is a link to an article about the nations (world?) first Creation Museum. Located in rural Kentucky USA, is a new museum under construction. Its cost, $25 Million, and all but 3 mill have been raised by private donation. The jist of it is, they believe in a young earth at only around 6000 years old. If people can believe this, they can believe ANYTHING.

My question is, how many christians here believe in a young earth and can you honestly defend such a proposition?

If you're christian and don't believe in a young earth, how do you reconcile the bibles lack of mention of dinosaurs? Before this turns into a debate on Leviathan or behemoth, I'll warn you right now that I will defend this argument as being either a Alligator/Crocodile (Leviathan) or a Hippo (Behemoth). Its a stretch and leap of faith and wishful thinking to suggest these could be anything else.

Discuss....

 

waste of 25 mil. Hard to see how they can justify this in a world such as we inhabit.

 

I'm not a christian but I can have a go - or at least say what I think christians would say

1) 6000 years is historically correct - that is, the number of generations between Adam and people just being born indicates this
2) Dinosaurs are the devils work - theyre there to confuse people and didnt really live
3)god used other bits of the universe to create the earth and they got mixed up with our earth
4) they are gods experiments which he buried

Christians may give a view different but I cant see what else it could be

 

So god decided to set out to decieve us right at the start, if that were true. In which case, it is hard to either see such a god as a god of love, or to trust anything else he's done.

I'm not a christian either, but I wonder if they think the entire universe is only 6,000 years old?

 

Im not exactly familiar with this particular museum but thanks for the anticreationist propaganda link.
Taking the Daily Show/Colbert Report method of propaganda and simply smug, guffaw and attribute stupid idea 'as if' we all know better.

I am a 'young earth' Creationist and I really do not have to 'defend' any position other than to say Genesis claims 'square' with what we know about the world around us.

Its true that many Bible Commentators (especially in previous eras) have speculated these are some sorts of Crocodiles or Hippos.
The first (Leviathon) is most certainly some sort of tremendous water dwelling reptile.
If its a Crocodile then its the biggest baddest mutherfucking crocodile ever born.
Behemoth is definately not a Hippo, which have almost comically tiny little tales.
Brontos have tails that are the size of Cedar Trees.

In addition to these, there is most certainly mention of 'Dragons' throughout the Bible.
Throughout the world actually in just about any ancient culture.
Of course you would have snickered at that Im sure.
"HAHAH
Christians believed in huge thundering lizards!
AHAH its in their Bible ahahah..."

Oh shit.. yep, Thunder Lizards (in latin thats 'DinoSaur' btw)... they did exist.
Bible 1
Scoffers 0

Hmm what else is interesting about the Genesis claims?
Well,
It claims that there was a 'previous earth' that was destroyed and a new one where animals repopulated.
Hmmmm?
And under layers of sedimentary layers (gee where did those come from?) we find
MegaPlants.
But we do not find them now.
So even if Dinosaurs were taken into the new Earth environemnt it looks like they might not have lasted long?

The Creationist Museum is a desperately needed place.
Its being blocked out of the classrooms by opponents using courtrooms and technicalities.
Its being mocked and ridiculed out of any sort of mainstream media.
So,
The only way we can get the truth out to people might be creating our own museums and courses.

My main concern - its going to be run by the wacky guys.
Kent Hovind
Ken Ball
I can only hope and pray that Tim Wallace gets put in charge or the guys from AIG

UPDATE: Oh my prayers were answered fast yep it turns out they are in charge of it (or in on it at least) http://www.answersingenesis.org/museum/walkthrough/

 

We do know better. There are many human artefacts more than 6.000 years old for example. But as usual, brainwashed believers are in denial of the facts of science, even though as usual, they don't mind using the productions of science, modern media etc. to seek to spread their ridiculous nonsense. Nor do they mind wasting millions of dollars on such idiocy - which, if I'm not mistaken, actually goes against the whole spirit of christian charity. The money could have been given to the poor.

 

If you came here for a Christian respose... you came to the wrong place

 

Well, I happen to think that it is a waste of money given the desperate and real need of millions in the world who live on a dollar a day or less. It represents 50 million days survival money.

Christians it seems, would rather spend their cash on proping up their insane and illogical belief system than giving to the poor.
My diagnosis would be that they do it because they want to increase even further their feelings of self-righteousness (that is, when they're not too busy getting a 'massage' from a gay prostitute, or scoring crystal meth - a very low life substance, incidentally, to flush down the toilet - thus wasting even more rescouces).

 

IMO, Young Earth Creationism is a last-ditch attempt by a belief system that is being challenged on all fronts to construct an "intellectual" rationale for a fairy tale, because the stakes are very high:

Take away Adam and Eve and Original Sin and orthodox Christianity collapses...it no longer has a reason to exist.

Folks, religiously-impartial science can't be stopped, no matter how many accusations are thrown at the scientific community by religionists. Yes, it's an imperfect process that involves plenty of new discovery, backtracking, and discarding of previous evidence and theory, there are cheating persons out primarily for personal gain and reputation, and so on....but it's still an established process of inquiry and study that will persevere despite its shortcomings.

Orthodox Christianity, among other orthodox faiths, can't handle impartial science because it threatens to take away the absolute psychological certainty that a literal interpretation of scripture offers.

It seems to me that the better approach for believers, including myself, is to learn to discern what is the truly spiritual in any given scripture, and separate that from what is obviously myth invented in ancient times to explain the unexplainable, and perpetuated into the present to maintain a social order.

 

Trouble there for christians is that if you remove the myth, not much is really left. Just ethical values - and even some of them are questionable given the results of modern psychology etc.
I think it's quite complex, and it relates to the structure of christian beliefs. If we discard the genesis creation story as a fable, which it clearly is, then there is no basis for the idea of original sin. Without original sin, there is no need for redemption, nor for a sacrificial death to placate the wrath of god. No sacrificial death = no resurection. So the thing just falls apart.

A liberal type might say that original sin exists somehow, even if genesis is wrong - but there is no basis for believing that. There's no evidence for instance that tribal cultures which existed prior to the colonial era were more inherently 'sinful' or morally worse than christians - and in fact, the reverse often seems to be more the case.

My view is that anyone looking for spirituality is far better off looking into other things - eastern religions, shamanism, 'new-age' stuff etc. These things tend to be more based on what one can verify for oneself, rather than a fixed and narrow set of dogmas as is the case with christianity, islam and judaisim.

 

Bill...in part, I disagree...there's still plenty left. Just because you throw out Original Sin doesn't mean Jesus goes too...he gets seen in a different light...Christianity can still move ahead as a bonafide faith because it has an authentic spiritual basis in the person, teachings, and death/resurrection of Jesus....but yes, for the traditional Christian, removing Original Sin does remove all the props, and that's too much for most of them to handle.

You are right in asserting that there are numerous means by which a seeker can find a much more direct avenue to the spiritual than through Christianity as it presently exists.

Numerous Eastern teachers have acknowledged Jesus as an avatara or incarnation of God....and if you read between the lines in the NT there are plenty of passages that can be seen as having veiled and not-so-veiled similarity to Vedic and other eastern teachings.

And I think Jesus had his own unique contribution as a spiritual teacher...he emphasized love, compassion, and forgiveness over all, and conclusively demonstrated the illusory nature of physical death in the crucifixion and resurrection.

 

I don't know what you're talking about. This link is of a news site in the UK and has been around as a news source since the 1800's.

Only if you think science is out to get you. There is absolutely no credible evidence to suggest the earth is only 6000 years old. None, nada, nix.

OK, even if this IS the case and it's a really really big croc, big deal, it certainly isn't evidence of the existence of dinosaurs of other varieties living during the time of man. You still have to reject current dating methods that date dino bones to over 65 million years. Then give evidence that current dating methods are wrong. I've seen the creationist web sites giving all sorts of excuses as to why not to trust currently accepted dating methods and all fail.

Job 40:17 only mentions his tail as swaying like a cedar, it says nothing of its size. If you look at a Hippos tail, with a little imagination (not much) it resembles and upside down cedar Tree.

The bible doesn't mention size, so this is a moot point. see above.

Yeah Yeah and there is stories of unicorns and flying horses in ancient cultures too, do you believe in the existence of these as well?

You're right, I snicker at the thought of "dragons", unicorns, flying horses and sassquatch as well. Don't you? I have never seen convincing evidence of any of these things.

Evidence that Thunder lizard = Dinosaur in latan? In new Latin its derived from Deinos (monsterous) and Sourus (lizard) and this still doesn't explain anything the bible is describing. Monsterous could mean the difference between a salamander (small lizard) and alligator (monsterous in comparison).

Again, no evidence.

Because IT"S NOT SCIENCE!!!!

BECAUSE IT'S NOT SCIENCE. If anyone can teach a creation story, then we must also teach the creation story of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

I highly doubt that Dr. Dino (Hovind) will be running it. Him and his wife both, have been convicted of tax fraud on muliple counts. They are facing many years in jail.

It was answered long before you prayed, it was in the original article I posted LOL. DOH!

 

I see the Evofundies are back in full force with their 'Scientific' evidence and it goes like this (again)

Evo: Creationism is FALSE becasue its NOT SCIENCE and therefore its NOT TRUE but Evolutionism is SCIENCE because its SCIENCE and therefore its true and a FACT because Evolutionism is FACT becuase its a SCIENCE.

Sorry folks but modern science comes straight out of Christianity.
Genesis and Science go hand in hand and there is no problem.
Modern Science has been developed for the very purpose of discovery God his Creation even if people have been stealing its skills to create Evolutionism stories.

Heres another thing you need to get with:
Creationism is the cutting edge.
Thats one of the reasons a new museum is being built.
Do you want to know what is an old dying dinosaur?
Naturalistic Evolutionism is.

But yeah, thanks for the 'scientific' rebuttals where you INSISTS SUPERHARD that Evolutionism is FACT because you said it was FACT because its SCIENCE and therefore its FACT.
Real Good!
Wow!
You INSIST SO HARD that it just simply must be true.

 

as aposed to..it must be true because a book about god which is the words of god says god exists so it must be true?

 

Strawman, and patently false. Evolution IS Science because it has facts to support its theories. Theories are a set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena. The evidence (the things called facts) supports the theory. So again, what are the creationists theories and what evidence is there to support the theory? What in creationism has been repeatedly tested AND observed that will support creationism theory? I'll expect an answer soon.

Where do you get this stuff? I know you weren't taught this in any public school.

The ONLY reason this thing is being built is because there are tons of nutters out there willing to PAY to go see this nonsense. They will somehow think that it will confirm their already twisted beliefs.

take it back or quote where ever I said any of the above, then learn what strawman arguments are.

 

Well thats a good start actually.

Genesis Creationism starts off winning by being something that can be tested, investigated and measured up against.
It made many claims about the Earth and Civilisation and it has to stick with them.
We now have the advantage of finding cold hard facts and holding them up against Genesis.

I fully expect that this didnt make any sense to 99% of you but try and stop for two seconds and think about why Genesis has to stand on its claims and answer for them.
Its written already.

For example:
Genesis already made its claim that the whole planet was deluged in a global flood.
Do you get how this works - it cant 'take it back' or excuse itself if different facts are found out.
So,
In this example, Genesis makes a claim and now we go straight out in the dirt and start digging for cold hard facts.
We find Sedimentary Layers.
Does that 'square' with the claims - Yes, it does.

You do not get anymore cold hard scientific fact (or FACT as you say) than this type of research.

Now lets look at the 'story' of Evolutionism.
Errrrr....
Well the problem is that there is no actual 'story'.
Well there is but it is different whenever it wants or needs to be.
You cannot really hold it up to anything because its doesnt really exist.
Huh?

Let me give you the most recent example and try and think this through.
The story had it that animals had been morphing bit-by-bit millions of times over millions of generations.
Sure.. 99.9 bad mutations happen but somehow, somewhere good ones must have stuck.
A Lizard grew a little nub on his back and millions of generations of lizards had longer and longer and longer nubs till eventually flaps.. then boney flaps.. eventually one day the lizard could fly with them.
Ok.
Oh shit... the problem is that we find these cool things called fossils.
After digging for decades and centuries....
Nope.
Every damn fossil is an 'already completed' animal.
In other words,
We might even find a feathered lizard.
Fine.
but we can never find a lizard with half-formed feather like boney limb things hanging off it.
Ok,
So now what we do is simply reject that part of the story (the millions of incremental changes) and we now make up a new theory.
Puncuated Equalibrium.
See.. now we are theorising that errr... ok, what happened was that (example) a lizard couple just gave birth to a flying lizard with wings.
Now thats the new theory.
Ok.
Well nobody seemed to buy that and Stephen Gould died so shit...

Does everyone understand how I am demonstrating and explaining to you the very real reasons why Evolutionism is LESS Scientific.
No,
You dont.
Thats because you dont even really know or care what Evolutionism is or how it works.
In addition to that - some of you WANT to believe its "SCIENCE because its FACT because its SCIENCE" because you think (mistakenly) that it will help you avoid answering to any sort of Divine Being.

Again; Genesis is a series of claims that are set and now testable in light of modern scientific research.
Evolutionism is an ever changing story that is made up AROUND facts and research and cant answer for anything or claim anything.
Its not real.

 

Is The Goverment building this thing ? Is that goverment money?


I follow the teachings of Christ.
The age of our planet seems way outside the core concepts of Christianity.

Because Planet Earth is hundreds of millions of years old, it doesn't invalidate Christ's teachings.

 

The "science" of creationism, hardly heard of until the last 25 years or so, is a reactionary response to the threat posed to orthodox Christian belief by the ever-evolving body of secular scientific knowledge.

Modern science exists despite the efforts of Christianity...first to eradicate it; when that was no longer possible, to discredit it.

In our own time, much Christian effort has become concentrated on discrediting anything that challenges a "literal" interpretation of the Bible.

This new "museum" will no doubt be successful...as were the "Left Behind" books. There are plenty of people who need spoonfed assurance that what they believe is true, and if it this "assurance" sold tens of millions of copies or cost $25 mil to build, well, by golly, God must have had something to do with it!

I didn't insist evolution was true...I just commented that it's a theory that's the result of standard scientific process.

You're the one doing the insisting.

 

Nope,
but you DO pay taxes to support pro-evolutionism museums.

 

You have no idea what you are talking about.
'Creationism' had always been the world view, across the world and throughout every culture.
Naturalistic Evolutionism and its creation story became the dominant story mainly in the last century (although it was made up before then)
Seriously,
Are you on fucking crack?
Have you ever heard of the Book of Genesis and Charles Darwin?

You are so fucking brainwashed and deceived its not even funny.
I suggest you read books.
Modern Science comes directly out of the Abbeys and Cloisters of Christendom.
You can say that Christianity 'Invented' the modern scientific method.
How can you NOT know this is beyond me?

Christian effort in our own time has been to discover and uncover an astonishing list of facts and research validating the 'Literal" interpretation of Genesis.
Remember all those cities and kings mentioned in Genesis that were supposedly 'ficticious' just a hundred years ago.
Oh shit.
Turns out a little thing called research and digging has verified most of them already.

and if Discovery Channel keeps on pushing expensive CGI morphing 'documentaries' on Evolutionism then it must also be true?
That people need and want to be spoonfed assurance that their belief in a non-judgemental 'god' is validated by Evolutionism .. well golly then it must be truer eh.

You insist its a result of standard scientific process and you are dead wrong.
Thats not how the story of Evolutionism came to be.
Seriously.
Its not.