The Root of All Evil

Originally Posted by jaredfelix

Nothing about greed?

Everything you care to add.

Belief in a god or gods is not "evil" in and of itself. There are those who can function quite well in society with that type of belief system, just as there are those who can function very well without that belief.

faith in a higher power is not necessarily dangerous or "evil"

(evil being a really bad term to use, given the relative nature of morality. and lack of absolutes)

at worst it is a block on personal introspection, scientific research etc. but people are constantly finding ways to reconcile the two, so that doesn't really matter. it does demonstrate a strange, somewhat unhealthy desire for subservience in many cases, which i find odd personally, being a bit of an anti-theist, but that isn't "evil", just a bit of a shame.

wars tend to be about resources, at their core, but faith has proved itself time and time again to be a great motivator and catalyst.

not the fault of faith in itself, rather the willingness of some people to exploit it for commercial ends, and the willingness of those with faith to be exploited (not to imply that faith automatically makes one more easy to manipulate, just that exploitation, in this instance, requires some level of- even unconscious- complicity)

so long as:

laws are dictated by reason and empathy, not on faith alone.

faith (even of the majority) is never allowed to impede scientific, artistic or philosophical progress, debate or study.

faith is not recognised as a having a monopoly on morality

those of faith are not exempt from any law of the country, nor allowed to impose the rules of their faith on others.

everything should be peachy.

society will never really be what it could be, having been built on a religious foundation which encoded into its very structure institutional racism, sexism and homophobia, but hopefully these can be effectively combated with kindness, love and mutual respect. failing that, legislation (lol)

money is the root of all evil, or, if you wanna be more precise, socially constructed hierarchies based on material goods. there is something rather unpleasant at the heart of man, but there is also great beauty. unfortunately, we appear to have created a society based on the ugliest attributes rather than the beautiful, a self perpetuating system that encourages and rewards us based on our ability to conform to the least desirable characteristics of our species, to exploit and to be exploited.

Money is evil, so cliche. More people have gotten rich from exploiting peoples faith than anything. It amazes me how so many people will defend faith as a virtue. It's got to be pure social brainwashing. The act of convincing oneself that lies are true is a good thing? It actually works for people, I realize this, ignorance is bliss. The problem is one persons ignorant bliss is another persons hell, or their own hell after the dangers of faith materialize. Faith = Ignorance = Bliss = Hell = Evil... Inside the box of faith you only see your own convoluted illusions of goodness. Looking from outside the box you're evil and corrupt. Two armies go to war, both sides seeing evil, both sides BELIEVING they are right. Endless circles of denial, misery and bloodshed. Faith, it's a good thing... a BLOODY good thing.

Originally Posted by relaxxx

Money is evil, so cliche. More people have gotten rich from exploiting peoples faith than anything. It amazes me how so many people will defend faith as a virtue. It's got to be pure social brainwashing. The act of convincing oneself that lies are true is a good thing? It actually works for people, I realize this, ignorance is bliss. The problem is one persons ignorant bliss is another persons hell, or their own hell after the dangers of faith materialize. Faith = Ignorance = Bliss = Hell = Evil... Inside the box of faith you only see your own convoluted illusions of goodness. Looking from outside the box you're evil and corrupt. Two armies go to war, both sides seeing evil, both sides BELIEVING they are right. Endless circles of denial, misery and bloodshed. Faith, it's a good thing... a BLOODY good thing.

And your convoluted illusion of goodness is that faith is bad. As long as you are reacting to anything as though it were evil, you are reacting to an illusion as though it were real.

You totally miss the culprit in your, the world is fucked because of faith scenario. The culprit is evaluating things on a sliding scale of good and evil. A far better measure is true of false. Misapprehension is the cause of all anxiety.

Originally Posted by relaxxx

Money is evil, so cliche. More people have gotten rich from exploiting peoples faith than anything.

therefore faith itself is to blame rather than the people who use it to exploit and manipulate others? i'm not sure that follows. (also, props for the condescension)

Religion isn't the enemy, it's the people who abuse the message and the great power they achieve by their elevated status. These guys are the worst of the worst, praying on the goodness and trust of people. Power breeds corruption, and it is a shame the word of Jesus is blamed.

The sum of Jesus' teachings constitute a state of mind, not a book of dogma. Put your faith in the pipe of the kingdom of the heavens and you will understand.

I'll backtrack and read the entire thread, but before I do, I'd like to address two things:

The meaning and validity of "faith", and what is not "faith".

And the often "quoted" biblical statement about "the love of money" being "the root of all evil".

Firstly, in my honest and scientific opinion, (and I've been a great fan of science since I was a young teenager), in my opinion, true "faith" is not "blind". Faith is not merely a willingness to suspend personal judgment and discernment, and a rational, thinking mind, and "believe" something "with no proof or evidence".

I consider myself a person of science as well as a person of faith. I believe, but not based on what I was "taught", or "led to believe" by my parents, or any "religious leader". I believe things based on my own experience. I have to test things, and have always been this way. I consider myself as open-minded, neither for, nor against "faith". I have seen abhorrent and damaging anti-social behaviors justified by someone's alleged "faith", and I have also seen close-mindedness based on people's reactions to such behaviors. I consider neither of these extremes as valid, scientific thought or practice. Some are raised with a "belief", or adopt a "faith" from those charismatic ones amongst them. Some even take on a particular "faith" only because it is dangerous to do otherwise, in the context of the culture they grew up in, family background, etc. Others, rightfully and justifiably "agnostic", see various crackpots posing as "religious leaders", and blind followers of some preferred ideal, for what they are, frauds and charletons, carrying out an "act", even convincing themselves that they are legit.

Myself, I began becoming interested in spiritual things around my mid-teens, when I began to read about Zen Buddhism, Yoga, and "Eastern" philosophies. I found them much more attractive than what is considered "Christianity", because the Christianity I witnessed was full of oddity, peculiarity, and bigoted viewpoints, was inconsistent, lacking in real subjective experience, and was inhabited by people who typically condescended to others, thinking themselves as "on the right path", while others were "going to hell". This kind of thinking did not appeal to me, as a youth who was interested in knowing things, and knowing how things worked, and wishing to find out through personal experience rather than being handed something "on a plate".

Today, I'm 62 years of age, have been a member of a well-known religious cult, and have learned from my experiences not to be a "devotee", but judge things from my personal perspective, as to their validity, not allowing someone to "lead me" in what I "must believe", either on the side of "for" or "against". I'm not one to polarize the issues, but rather, one who believes seeking the truth that exists on both sides of the aisle.

I think many believe that simply because a large number of people are acting crazy, that the beliefs they espouse must, by association, also be invalid. This is an unscientific conclusion. It's like saying that someone who murdered someone else drinks milk, and eats chocolate cake, so drinking milk and eating chocolate cake caused him/her to murder.

People believe what they choose to believe, and cast aside the rest. (Very close to the wording of a Simon and Garfunkel song,,"The Boxer"). I choose to remain a seeker, unbiased, and open to discussion about any subject.

I believe that there is "faith" that is genuine, and not based on "blind ideology", but rather on an inward experience, which enlightens, rather than blinds. In that sense, once one has "believed", it is difficult, if not impossible, to simply "not believe". It's like saying "I once tried milk, and it was good at the time, but I no longer believe in the existence of milk."

I will stop there, concerning "faith", but may take it up again in another post.

As to the biblical quote,,

"For the love of money is a root of all evils, because of which some, aspiring after money, have been led away from the faith and pierced themselves through with many pains."

This is the correct interpretation. The love of money is not "the only root" of "all evil". But it is a root. The King James translation of the bible is not perfect.

Originally Posted by thedope

And your convoluted illusion of goodness is that faith is bad. As long as you are reacting to anything as though it were evil, you are reacting to an illusion as though it were real.

You totally miss the culprit in your, the world is fucked because of faith scenario. The culprit is evaluating things on a sliding scale of good and evil. A far better measure is true of false. Misapprehension is the cause of all anxiety.

Convoluted? You're responding to me like a God Damn fortune teller!

What good is faith beyond it's coping mechanisms of denial and delusions?

Why is it so hard to acknowledged that it is dangerous and ignorant?

"Evil" is seen from within the box of faith, it is defined from faith and religion. You don't understand what I'm saying and you clearly don't understand my perspective.

Faith = Ignorance. It's not convoluted at all, it's plain and simple truth!

Originally Posted by autophobe2e

therefore faith itself is to blame rather than the people who use it to exploit and manipulate others? i'm not sure that follows. (also, props for the condescension)

I never said people who got rich from ignorance arn't ignorant themselves. Most of them are clearly detached from reality. Faith is both exploitable and exploitative.